Shady Dealers
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Post Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 7:43 am 
 

Bracton wrote:Yeah, I was probably a bit too quick to dismiss a refund.  But it really wasn't about the cost, since I thought the price was still fair for a fourth print.  I guess I was really hoping for a bit better explanation.  

Anyway, this sounds like a good approach.  Thanks.


You stated also that he is likely even newer to this than you are.
If so, then I doubt he has the resources of anything like the Acaeum to back up his research into print runs.
Plus many folks especially those who simply have a few items, never pay any attention to dates, knowing the items is simply old; 30 years, or 29 years, or 28 years.
All of them are still old.
Did he mention it was a first print in the listing?


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Post Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 8:34 am 
 

serleran wrote:Well, since you said you didn't want a refund, and it doesn't bother you that you paid for a 4th print when you thought you'd get a 1st print... I'd say leave a positive, but give 3 or 4 stars on "item accuracy" explaining there was a minor discrepancy in description (a shame eBay limits you to not a lot of characters.)

Personally, I'd have probably asked for something back, seeing as the description was misleading at best (which is why I always give refunds if I mess up when selling something - not full, necessarily, but something - it is important to mak sure your buyers are happy with what they get, and if not, at least happy with how you treat them because of your mistake) and if he did not, probably leave a neutral.


Well, the guy messed up, but since nothing was asked for then why hurt his DSR? If a refund was asked for and refused, sure, but the ebay feedback system for sellers works this way;

5 stars is an acceptable transaction, 4 stars is a bad transaction, 3 stars is a very bad transaction, 2 stars is a terrible transaction, and 1 star is the worst transaction possible. Ebay wants sellers to get bad ratings and therefore be inelligible for their benefits and fee reductions. They make it seem like 3 stars is an okay auction, but having a 4 or lower DSR will get you a warning on your seller dashboard.

So if the guy made a mistake, was asked for an explanation and explaned, what else can he do? Giving 3 or 4 stars is going to hurt him. so why do it? Save it for the seller who won't reduce over priced shipping fees or communicate or refund or even explain.

  

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Post Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 10:13 am 
 

That DSR system is stupid.

If a refund was asked for and refused, sure


That, to me, would not get you a positive feedback - you'd likely get a neutral or negative (depends on a lot of other factors.)

Well, the guy messed up, but since nothing was asked for then why hurt his DSR?


Why reward a mistake?

I know it is a bit ironic, as I have listed things that I later found to be different than I thought at first, but I tell the person buying it before they do, so they can make a decision. If, for some reason it skips by me, and they don't find out, I always refund after the fact and ask if they want to keep the item - if they do, fine. If not, that's OK, too - I'll pay the shipping to get it back.

I guess I just look at it differently - I'd probably give a 4 star on item accuracy. But, since he's a newbie seller, I might not. Again, lots of little factors.


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Post Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 10:43 am 
 

serleran wrote:That DSR system is stupid.

Why reward a mistake?

I know it is a bit ironic, as I have listed things that I later found to be different than I thought at first, but I tell the person buying it before they do, so they can make a decision. If, for some reason it skips by me, and they don't find out, I always refund after the fact and ask if they want to keep the item - if they do, fine. If not, that's OK, too - I'll pay the shipping to get it back.

I guess I just look at it differently - I'd probably give a 4 star on item accuracy. But, since he's a newbie seller, I might not. Again, lots of little factors.


I would hesitate for the case above to give a neutral or negative but as you said, I MIGHT give him a 4, or even a 3 for item accuracy...

As you said, he is a rookie and he messed up by not knowing what he was selling.
If he was a big time seller, and if after contacting him and he said.. whatever......  :roll: , or some such, then he WOULD get a neutral or negative if he did not make it right somehow.

BTW: BE VERY cautious before negging or even neutraling a seller on E-Bay.
Especially if he is a member here. :roll:


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Last edited by Gnat the Beggar on Wed Jul 09, 2008 2:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
  


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Post Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 1:30 pm 
 

serleran wrote:That DSR system is stupid.



Why reward a mistake?

I know it is a bit ironic, as I have listed things that I later found to be different than I thought at first, but I tell the person buying it before they do, so they can make a decision. If, for some reason it skips by me, and they don't find out, I always refund after the fact and ask if they want to keep the item - if they do, fine. If not, that's OK, too - I'll pay the shipping to get it back.

I guess I just look at it differently - I'd probably give a 4 star on item accuracy. But, since he's a newbie seller, I might not. Again, lots of little factors.


I wasn't saying to reward a seller for refusing a refund, I was saying that would be the time you give a bad DSR and a neutral or neg.

But a 5 DSR is not a reward. There are no rewards here, just forms of punishment for sellers. Giving a Seller a 5 is the only good mark you can give them, giving them a 4 ius a punishment.

Why would you punish a seller for making an honest mistake and explaining it as requested?

A 5 is not a reward. A positive is not a reward. But any other feedback is a punishment. Buyers need to realize this, and not give 4's or 3's or neutrals thinking that they aren't hurting the seller. They are.

So once again. A seller makes an error, corrects it to the satisfaction of the buyer, Why would the buyer want to punish the seller for this?

  

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Post Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 10:14 pm 
 

JZavoda wrote: A 5 is not a reward. A positive is not a reward. But any other feedback is a punishment. Buyers need to realize this, and not give 4's or 3's or neutrals thinking that they aren't hurting the seller. They are.


So now I think I need some more education.  I've only been a buyer on Ebay, not a seller.  I had assumed that this was like movie ratings, where a 4 (or even a 3) would be OK.  Sounds like that isn't the case.  So what's the consequences to a seller of getting a 4?


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Post Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 10:17 pm 
 

Bracton wrote:
So now I think I need some more education.  I've only been a buyer on Ebay, not a seller.  I had assumed that this was like movie ratings, where a 4 (or even a 3) would be OK.  Sounds like that isn't the case.  So what's the consequences to a seller of getting a 4?


Unless your DSR's are 4.6 across the board or higher, you get no eBay fee discount. :x


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Post Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 10:28 pm 
 

Thanks.  That changes how I'll think about the scores.  But it seems a bit like the old grade inflation from college days.  Or like a few characters I DM'd way back when ("your lowest stat is a 16?"  8O).


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Post Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 10:40 pm 
 

Bracton wrote:Thanks.  That changes how I'll think about the scores.  But it seems a bit like the old grade inflation from college days.  Or like a few characters I DM'd way back when ("your lowest stat is a 16?"  8O).




It is just scuminess on the part of ebay. They tell buyers that a 3 means an okay transaction, and a 4 is better than a 3 and a 5 is exceptional, then they tell sellers that if you get too many 4's you will be penalized. You can lose a discount, power seller status, listing status, get warnings about your account. And this comes from getting 4's on your DSR.



They've set it up so that sellers have an impossible job of meeting their requirements while telling buyers that somehow a 3 or 4 isn't a 'bad' rating.



If you give a neutral it is just about the same as a negative. If you give a rating less than a 5 you are punishing a seller. A 5 means you are satisfied, not very satisfied, or exceptionally satisfied, while a 4 means you aren't satisfied and you want to take the seller down a peg.

  

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Post Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 10:51 pm 
 

benjoshua wrote:
Unless your DSR's are 4.6 across the board or higher, you get no eBay fee discount. :x


Ebay Sellers:

Welcome to the world created by Dave Whitfield and his ilk.

Ripoff artists.
Shipping bandits
Tricky listings.
Slow service.
Old-fashioned rude behavior.
And...(coming in at number one)...feedback extortion.

I feel sorry for you guys who do a great job of running your online businesses...which means most everyone here.  You don't deserve this.

Ebay has obviously seen that their business can suffer most by the loss of consumer confidence.  This is likely to become even more imporant to Ebay as they transition from an auction site (bargain hunters) to an ordinary online mall (standard consumers).

Without the auctions, Ebay has no hook to keep customers turned away by shady sellers.

Rather than fix the feedback system or crack down on individuals who cougar around with their customers, Ebay has punished all of you.

Rather than explain the rating system to consumers and rate sellers based upon that system, Ebay has created a neat way to make you all criminals.


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Post Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 10:59 pm 
 

A 5 is not a reward. A positive is not a reward. But any other feedback is a punishment. Buyers need to realize this, and not give 4's or 3's or neutrals thinking that they aren't hurting the seller. They are.


No, it is using the system as it was intended - ensuring seller honesty. Giving a seller a 5 on anything simply because you feel obligated to do it is not something I would do; sellers earn their stars - they do not receive them for nothing. There are lots of ways to do that, and I would rather leave 5s than anything else, but not every auction gets them, unfortunately.

If I were satisfied with the explanation, I would not leave a "4." If not, I probably would -- but, I'd have also asked for a minor refund because there is a significant difference between a 1st print something and a fourth print something, even if the value is not much different. I approach things differently, obviously.

Oh, and anything that is not a punishment is a reward, by serleran logic. :)


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Post Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 11:40 pm 
 

serleran wrote:
No, it is using the system as it was intended - ensuring seller honesty. Giving a seller a 5 on anything simply because you feel obligated to do it is not something I would do; sellers earn their stars - they do not receive them for nothing. There are lots of ways to do that, and I would rather leave 5s than anything else, but not every auction gets them, unfortunately.

If I were satisfied with the explanation, I would not leave a "4." If not, I probably would -- but, I'd have also asked for a minor refund because there is a significant difference between a 1st print something and a fourth print something, even if the value is not much different. I approach things differently, obviously.

Oh, and anything that is not a punishment is a reward, by serleran logic. :)


The DSR system is intended to keep sellers from making the discount levels. They tell buyers one thing and sellers another.

I offer free shipping, but my shipping cost DSR is 4.8, which isn't high enough for the fee discount. I need a 4.9 or better. My buyers are leaving positive feedback but some are leaving me with less than a 5 on shipping cost. I don't charge anything for shipping, but some buyers don't leave 5's because they think a 5 is only for some exceptional service. They are using the rating system the way it appears it should work, but what ebay tells me is that if I don't receive a 5 I am doing something wrong.

So, ignore what the DSR rating system says to buyers, it isn't true. Anything other than a 5 means you are a disatisfied customer. 5 is not exceptional, but a 4 is unsatusfied, that is the reality of how the DSR system works.

  

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Post Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 12:16 am 
 

JZavoda wrote:


I offer free shipping, but my shipping cost DSR is 4.8, which isn't high enough for the fee discount. I need a 4.9 or better. My buyers are leaving positive feedback but some are leaving me with less than a 5 on shipping cost. I don't charge anything for shipping, but some buyers don't leave 5's because they think a 5 is only for some exceptional service. They are using the rating system the way it appears it should work, but what ebay tells me is that if I don't receive a 5 I am doing something wrong.





This sums it up nicely - A seller that can do no more for his buyer, unless he invents a matter transporter, and still gets turned over by ebay. I don't see how anyone can argue that the system is fair on sellers. I'm glad I only buy/sell for jollys because I genuinely can't see how anyone could do this for a living and stay sane.


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Post Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 12:17 am 
 

JZavoda wrote:
The DSR system is intended to keep sellers from making the discount levels. They tell buyers one thing and sellers another.

I offer free shipping, but my shipping cost DSR is 4.8, which isn't high enough for the fee discount. I need a 4.9 or better. My buyers are leaving positive feedback but some are leaving me with less than a 5 on shipping cost. I don't charge anything for shipping, but some buyers don't leave 5's because they think a 5 is only for some exceptional service. They are using the rating system the way it appears it should work, but what ebay tells me is that if I don't receive a 5 I am doing something wrong.

So, ignore what the DSR rating system says to buyers, it isn't true. Anything other than a 5 means you are a disatisfied customer. 5 is not exceptional, but a 4 is unsatusfied, that is the reality of how the DSR system works.


Which is why I charge for shipping..and still have a 4.6 in that category.  Because the "free shipping" idea is a complete scam thrown out by ebay so they can make more money.....they make no money on shipping costs, and they know to protect their bottom line most sellers will up their item costs just a bit...which simply puts more money in Ebay's pocket. Free shipping.

To put it bluntly, I would lose more money with Free Shipping that I ever would by losing a discount I will never reach.  That Jason doesn't have a 4.9 shipping is really pretty much what I expected out of the system, so I decided not to play the game.  Ebay has rigged it so that they won't have to pay the discount, AND they will make money on the front end with your higher auction fees. Win-Win for them.  No thanks for me!

More proof that it's a scam is that Ebay won't let you see what customers leave for their DSRs.  If you can't retaliate with negs, why should this matter? Well, because if someone leaves low DSRs, you could still block them....and this would lead to less sales, and less money in Ebay's pocket. Otherwise, they'd let you know who is wrecking your discount and allow you to either block them or at least email them and ask them what you did wrong.

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Post Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 1:29 am 
 

Ebay has never made a change that didn't benefit them.  The new feedback rules are no exception.  As much as I want to like the new rules we are still going to see the same shady sellers that populate this thread.  While their DSR's may fall ebay won't do a thing with the sellers of phantom inventory, the cougars, and the rest because ebay makes a pile of money off them.

I don't put much stock in the shipping cost DSR because if I am a buyer that is the amount I am agreeing to pay so I don't feel I have a cause to ding them for it unless they gouge me on combined items.

The ship time DSR can be misleading and really only has value if you compare it to the DSR's of other sellers.

For ebay to deny legitimate sellers discounts based on things beyond their control is just wrong.

I do like the fact that a seller can no longer hold my feedback hostage.  I pretty much had a policy that if I couldn't give a seller a rave review I wouldn't give them any feedback.  That's no way to do a feedback system.

Finally, what do you all think would be a fair feedback system?  Is it even possible to have a system that is informative and quick to implement?

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Post Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 6:54 am 
 

napoleonsdad wrote:Ebay has never made a change that didn't benefit them.  The new feedback rules are no exception.  As much as I want to like the new rules we are still going to see the same shady sellers that populate this thread.  While their DSR's may fall ebay won't do a thing with the sellers of phantom inventory, the cougars, and the rest because ebay makes a pile of money off them.

I don't put much stock in the shipping cost DSR because if I am a buyer that is the amount I am agreeing to pay so I don't feel I have a cause to ding them for it unless they gouge me on combined items.

The ship time DSR can be misleading and really only has value if you compare it to the DSR's of other sellers.

For ebay to deny legitimate sellers discounts based on things beyond their control is just wrong.

I do like the fact that a seller can no longer hold my feedback hostage.  I pretty much had a policy that if I couldn't give a seller a rave review I wouldn't give them any feedback.  That's no way to do a feedback system.

Finally, what do you all think would be a fair feedback system?  Is it even possible to have a system that is informative and quick to implement?




A fair feedback system would just have comments with no positive/negative attached. Ebay could have a complaint system. A seller receiving a certain number of complaints gets a warning , then a suspension, then kicked off ebay. But under comments buyers and sellers shoud be able to say what they want and create threads. Feedback comments should be deleted after six months.



End the rating system and just let comments do the job.

  

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Post Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 8:06 am 
 

JZavoda wrote:

A fair feedback system would just have comments with no positive/negative attached. Ebay could have a complaint system. A seller receiving a certain number of complaints gets a warning , then a suspension, then kicked off ebay. But under comments buyers and sellers shoud be able to say what they want and create threads. Feedback comments should be deleted after six months.

End the rating system and just let comments do the job.




I dissagree.

On E-Bay the items you see in a listing and as described in the listing are NOT always what you get.

So, the sellers feedback score helps you to determine swiftly if you want to investigate the possible purchase further.

A seller with a rating below 98.5 percent rarely makes it to the save this in my watched items grouping.



Comments alone would NOT save buyers any E-Bay surfing time certainly, and worse, without a rating system that is easily read and for the most part easily understood, the casual buyer is at the mercy of the seller.



Furthermore, casual buyers do NOT have time to read paragraph after paragraph of selling comments from previous buyers for every item they have a thought of buying.



When I do search E-Bay listings, I tend to look through hundreds of listings at a time.

It can take a couple of hours to do so too.

If I had to read reems of comments for every seller, to dertermine if I wanted to buy from him/her, then I would simply scream and give up.

I might never buy from E-Bay again.



E-Bay already has a complaint system working and has for years.

Enough strikes and you are out, sellers and buyers both.


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Post Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 9:09 am 
 

Aneoth wrote:
I dissagree.
On E-Bay the items you see in a listing and as described in the listing are NOT always what you get.
So, the sellers feedback score helps you to determine swiftly if you want to investigate the possible purchase further.
A seller with a rating below 98.5 percent rarely makes it to the save this in my watched items grouping.

Comments alone would NOT save buyers any E-Bay surfing time certainly, and worse, without a rating system that is easily read and for the most part easily understood, the casual buyer is at the mercy of the seller.

Furthermore, casual buyers do NOT have time to read paragraph after paragraph of selling comments from previous buyers for every item they have a thought of buying.

When I do search E-Bay listings, I tend to look through hundreds of listings at a time.
It can take a couple of hours to do so too.
If I had to read reems of comments for every seller, to dertermine if I wanted to buy from him/her, then I would simply scream and give up.
I might never buy from E-Bay again.

E-Bay already has a complaint system working and has for years.
Enough strikes and you are out, sellers and buyers both.


Ebay's complaint system doesn't work, especially complaints about buyers. A revised complaint system could eliminate both bad sellers and bad buyers, but feedback ratings do nothing to stop bad sellers. High volume sellers can have terrible DSRs and still have decent feedback ratings, but a fair complaint system could weed them out. If instead of DSRs buyers could hit a complaint about excessive shipping, or poor communication, or bad itme descriptions, then you wouldn't need ratings.

Ain't gonna happen, but the Ebay feedback system is a scam.

  


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Post Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 12:28 pm 
 

DSRs can be pretty useful.  The numbers themselves are rather meaningless, but they're very good at comparisons between different sellers.  Sellers with 4.8s and 4.9s are clearly better than sellers with 4.5s and 4.6s.  

Obviously any given transaction could net a 3 or 4 even if successful but over the course of hundreds or thousands of ratings, the numbers will tend toward the seller's "true" level.

The one thing I would change with the discount system would be to grade it on a curve instead of fixed targets.  So for example:

25% discount - Top 1% of sellers.
20% discount - Top 5% of sellers.
15% discount - Top 15% of sellers.
10% discount - Top 25% of sellers.
5% discount - Top 50% of sellers.

Something like that.  Comparison to your peers is better than a fixed arbitrary number.

Right now it's 20% for all 4.9s, 15% for all 4.8s, and 5% for all 4.6s.

  


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Post Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 6:52 pm 
 

The DSR system is intended to keep sellers from making the discount levels. They tell buyers one thing and sellers another.


That's the sum of it. eBay's latest scam, nothing more, nothing less. And that's not a bitch at eBay for the sake of bitching. They are misrepresenting the DSR system to the buyer at the expense of the seller.

I leave a 5 when I can but only because I've figured out how the game works and refuse to penalise a seller if he/ she fulfills the basic contract of getting the goods to me as described in a reasonable time at a reasonable shipping cost. I'll only leave a lower score if something goes wrong and the seller can't be bothered to offer a remedy. The[n] I tend to leave a 1. Other examples include sellers who take my money then take an unreasonable amount of time to ship and don't bother contacting me, they get a 3 in the relevant categories. Who would leave a 4 though, once you know how the system works? A 4 says, "All fine thanks and here's a slap around the head despite the fact you don't deserve it!"

  
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