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bclarkie
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Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 5:22 pm

Okay, I've done my best to remain civil, but I have had it now. It's time to get nasty.

mbassoc2003 wrote:Jeez. It's like teaching monkeys. Now you really are being deliberately obstructive, or are you genunely that stupid? Go an log in tou your PayPal account, look at the transaction page of something you bought, and see if you can find an e-mail address.

As you will very quickly understand, you need to have bought or sold something in order to generate a transaction, and just like you, I haven't bought anything from Lisa's Stuff. So I have no transaction to interrogate.

You are just debating BS now and avoiding the questions I have asked.

Nope, this was a legit mistake. I never paid much attention to the transactions I get through PP, other than to make sure items were paid for and to transfer the funds.

That said, if you're going to call me stupid, the very least that you could do would be to actually use the English language that you supposedly have such a great grasp of. Otherwise, it makes you look like both a moron and a giant hypocrite to boot. Congrats!

mbassoc2003 wrote:It is a direct comparison. You claim a crime is a crime regardless of whether it was intentional or even perpetrated by the actions of the accused. You sit judgement on your peirs. So it is a just and direct comparrison.

What exactly is "piers"? Are you planning on going fishing sometime soon? It must be that excellent grasp of the English language that you keep purporting to have. It's no wonder that you and DM Dave get along so well. :lol:

With that said, no, your mindless babbling on and on about speeding has nothing to do with with the topic at hand. Only someone with an IQ in the single digits would think it's applicable. I guess that's just par for the course, huh?

BTW Ian, how is that illegal pdf collection that you have on file coming along?

Another one of your little moral justifications.

mbassoc2003 wrote:By your stated position, a speeder is a speeder, enven if they are not at fault and the actions of the motor vehicle were the instigator of the crime. By your reconning they are criminals by virtue of being the responsible driver of the vehicle at the time. You are painting a very twisted picture of your morality here. Why not answer the questions I have asked?

Yes, I know those of you lacking out on some chromosomes have difficulty dealing with such simple concepts such things as speeding as being being speeding, but that's really hardly my fault. We can just chalk it up to you being a complete imbecile.

But again, it's completely irrelevant to the actual topic at hand and really one of the weakest attempts that I've seen to change the subject in some time. You're struggling mightily enough with making any sense with the original topic, so lets just stick with that for now. We can talk about your idiotic stance on speeding not being speeding in some other thread.

mbassoc2003 wrote:The extent of my search for Mr B was limitted to the eBay data, PayPal data, and what little titbits I gleened from our correspondence. I am not about to spend 5 years of my life looking for a guy who disappeared. I have neither the time nor interest in pursuing this guy. Whilst this may have been your obsession over the past decade, it has not been mine. And for all your obsession and hunting this guy, you seem to have no more information than the rest of us who don't give a F about him.

And the idiocy continues to go along as you mindlessly babble with yet another position shift.

Are you ordinarily this stupid or do you have to work hard at it?

mbassoc2003 wrote:JI am not angry. I am affronted that you have labelled me a thief and will not back your public accusation up with facts that have a recongnised common position in law. You then avoid the questions I ask and bebate BS on the periphery, pretending you don't understand the nuances of English and don't know how PayPal works. Answer the questions posed.

You're not angry? Yeah, that's it. :lol:

So you're a thief, a shiller(yes, I went there Mr. Andyburnsrules) and a terribly bad liar. More congrats are in order!

mbassoc2003 wrote:You have ignored the questions in my post and just debated bulls't.

1. At what point did I break the law and become a thief?
2. Where/hpow can I contact Mr Jonb to return the funds, or do you not know either?

I've answered your idiotic questions multiple times now, but I'll do so yet again, in bold this time:

1. The very moment that you stole from someone and advocated strongly others follow suit. Think hard about it. I know that you're not really all that bright(or honest for that matter), but I'm sure that if you try hard enough, even you can do it.

2. For the fourth time, aside from the fact that you've openly acknowledging knowing exactly where they're at with lisas_things_too, it's also not my job to find the people you've stolen from so that you can make it right.

Now, how about actually answering some of my questions that you've avoided so many times now, huh?

Here is a few to get you started, let me know if I should dumb it down further, so it's easier for you to understand:

1) Since you've stolen from a thief and therefore are now a thief yourself, is now okay to steal from you?

2) If jonb, now known as lisas_things_too himself came on here again and admitted to stealing from people because people had stolen from him several years ago, would that make it all okay now?

3) Where in US or UK law does it state that it's okay under the law to steal from people who have stolen from others.

I will eagerly await your brilliant response(read as, your continued attempts to talk about speeding).

"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." -Neitzche

Last edited by bclarkie on Sun Feb 07, 2010 5:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

deimos3428
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Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 5:23 pm

mbassoc2003 wrote:Jeez. It's like teaching monkeys.

Ian, I don't agree with your take on things but it really hurts that you'd blindside me like that. It was completely unprovoked and uncalled for! :lol:

mbassoc2003
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Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 5:27 pm

deimos3428 wrote:Ian, I don't agree with your take on things but it really hurts that you'd blindside me like that. It was completely unprovoked and uncalled for!

Aw. I'm sorry, Deim'.

This week I've been mostly eating . . . The white ones with the little red flecks in them.

bclarkie
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Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 5:27 pm

mbassoc2003 wrote:Brian has a history of this type of behaviour. Every now and then he tries to run someone off the boards. Sometimes it's an eBay thief trolling for some pity, but sometimes it's a genuine contributor to the community, and we lose someone who has a lot to contribute and a lot of respect in the community, and then at other times he then disappears for months and months at a time, and no-one hears from him or can contact him. None of us will ever find out what external factors influence this behaviour, but it has developed steadily over the years. It's just the way he is.

Where have I tried to run you off the boards? I've simply called a spade a spade. That you don't like being called on your BS isn't my fault.

<*edited for a non-constructive personal attack*>

"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." -Neitzche

Last edited by bclarkie on Sun Feb 07, 2010 6:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Improv
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Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 5:31 pm

mbassoc2003 wrote:Brian has a history of this type of behaviour. Every now and then he tries to run someone off the boards. Sometimes it's an eBay thief trolling for some pity, but sometimes it's a genuine contributor to the community, and we lose someone who has a lot to contribute and a lot of respect in the community, and then at other times he then disappears for months and months at a time, and no-one hears from him or can contact him. None of us will ever find out what external factors influence this behaviour, but it has developed steadily over the years. It's just the way he is.

Ian,

Give me a break. Stick to the topic and stop trying to distract it with this nonsense. These are the types of comments that try to run someone off a board.

At the core of this disagreement was your recommendation that committing a crime against another party was justified because that party had comitted a crime first. Sorry Ian, but you will not finding me supporting you on this one.

"... and may I remind you that this ain't the end. I can still kick some ass." - Tom Petty

Improv
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Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 5:36 pm

bclarkie wrote:
You're so dumb, it must hurt.

Brian,

Go out for a long walk and calm down before you respond.... Better to respond with logic rather then emotion and name calling doesn't help.

"... and may I remind you that this ain't the end. I can still kick some ass." - Tom Petty

Improv
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Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 5:38 pm

deimos3428 wrote:Ian, I don't agree with your take on things but it really hurts that you'd blindside me like that. It was completely unprovoked and uncalled for!

I really don't understand that quote .... monkeys are really smart and easy to teach. Now if you said like trying to teach my Poodle to stop claiming everything as his own then I would agree :-)

"... and may I remind you that this ain't the end. I can still kick some ass." - Tom Petty

bclarkie
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Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 5:42 pm

improvstone wrote:
Brian,

Go out for a long walk and calm down before you respond.... Better to respond with logic rather then emotion and name calling doesn't help.

Sorry Mike, I've tried many times to keep this discussion civil to absolutely no avail. I really didn't want it turn out this way, but I haven't been left much of a choice at this point.

"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." -Neitzche

mbassoc2003
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Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 6:01 pm

Your response 1. Be specific. Is it theft at the point at I made a claim for not receiving the goods? Is it theft at the point at which Jonb refunds my money to me? Is it theft at the point at which the item actually arrives in the post? Or is it theft at some arbitrary point after that when Jonb no longer accepts payment? Again... At which point do my actions become theft, because I undertook a transaction in all good faith, 5 months after taking up this collecting hobby, and you accuse me of stealing because I won't dedicate my life to chasing down some assh'le that stole from everyone else, just because I'm happy my item arrived and Jonb refunded me my money to boot. You are really f'd up, Brian. Have a reality check. Jonb isn't my life. I don't know if you're pissed because he stole from you in an earlier incarnation, I didn't read all the threads and I don't really care to. But this guy has really f'ked you up. You do not steal from someone if they don't accept payment for something when it's offered. In my world, I do not have a life long debt of obligation to then find the guy and pay him his money. I am a normal board member. I just happen to have been open and posted my experience of dealing with Jonb.
Your response 2. I may well believe that Lisa is Jon, as you say you do, but firstly she claims not to be, secondly I have no e-mail address, telephone number or address for her despite repeatedly asking known buyers to do the information request and PM me the info (although I have someone getting that information for me now I beleive), and thirdly, I am not about to compound an error by sending money to someone else in error without making sure the rightful owner receives it. I'm not a f'king idiot. This forum in very public and open for the owner to contact me privately. I have not hid or denied I owe a debt to him for goods received. That does not make me a thief or make it acceptable for you to accuse me of theft.

Your question 1. I have neither stolen from Jonb, nor am I a thief. Your continued accusations do not hold water and the board has record of the events all the way beck to 2005. Quit being an arse.
Your question 2. WTF!? If Lisa came on here and said she was Jonb and could she have her $60, and could provide evidence to substantaite her claim (ie knew specifics only the buyer and seller would know) I would gladly hand over the money owed, as I have not had any other dealings with the individual concerned, and not been wronged by them personally.
Your question 3. It doesn't! Where under UK or US Law does it say that if someone refuses to accept payment for something they sent to you, you are breaking the law? Where does it say that if they refund your money you are breaking the law?

This week I've been mostly eating . . . The white ones with the little red flecks in them.

mbassoc2003
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Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 6:13 pm

improvstone wrote:
Ian,

Give me a break. Stick to the topic and stop trying to distract it with this nonsense. These are the types of comments that try to run someone off a board.

At the core of this disagreement was your recommendation that committing a crime against another party was justified because that party had comitted a crime first. Sorry Ian, but you will not finding me supporting you on this one.

I agree with you, Mike. I have advoked taking pre-emptive action against someone who you may have solid reason to believe is going to steal from you. And I may postulate that that sort of action is a means of deterring what is a constant campaign of eBay theft. It is contentious and I not wholely morally justifiable if the moral norm of society were to be used as a benchmark. I might argue my case, but I know it flies in the face of what society says is acceptable behaviour. That said, it is a debate and no illegal action or activity has ever been taken.

Talking about it does not make me a thief. I have stolen nothing. Nor have I purchased anything from anyone with any intention other than to have a smooth honest transaction. Holding a belief that something is justified, and voicing that belief does not make you a criminal, nor should it result in accusations of theft from others.

This week I've been mostly eating . . . The white ones with the little red flecks in them.

Last edited by mbassoc2003 on Sun Feb 07, 2010 6:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

bclarkie
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Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 6:14 pm

mbassoc2003 wrote:Your response 1. Be specific.

It's theft when you chargeback on an item, then receive it and don't pay for it, especially when that was pretty much your intention the whole time.

Like I said twice above, this isn't the first time that stealing from jonb or his incarnations has been discussed. It is however the first time it was actually put into the public view. Or don't you remember PMing me and several other people a few years ago talking about doing it?

You seem to be confusing the logic behind not feeling bad for the bad guys who get f**ked over and actively participating/encouraging people in doing the same things that the bad guys do. It's not the same thing.

mbassoc2003 wrote:Your response 2. I may well believe that Lisa is Jon, as you say you do, but firstly she claims not to be, secondly I have no e-mail address, telephone number or address for her despite repeatedly asking known buyers to do the information request and PM me the info

Lets stop playing around here.

How hard would it to be to buy a cheap item and over pay them $50 or whatever more than you were supposed to?

Or if not, how hard would it to be to actually request their PP email address to pay them through?

Am I actually supposed to believe that this known scammer, who has worked very hard over the years to rip people off is going to just turn down free money? Really?

mbassoc2003 wrote:Your question 2. WTF!? If Lisa came on here and said she was Jonb and could she have her $60, and could provide evidence to substantaite her claim (ie knew specifics only the buyer and seller would know) I would gladly hand over the money owed, as I have not had any other dealings with the individual concerned, and not been wronged by them personally.

That didn't actually answer the question. Your position thus far has been that its okay to steal from thieves, thus making okay to steal from jonb or his other various incarnations. So, if that's the case, all jonb has to do is to come here and claim that he had been stolen from before and was just trying to get at the thieves that who stole from him previously, which according to your logic would make everything he's done to everyone all okay now. Right?

To be clear:

mbassoc2003 wrote:Your question 3. It doesn't!

Of course it doesn't, which kind of eliminates the whole "bclarkie's morality laws" that were posted about previously.

mbassoc2003 wrote:Where under UK or US Law does it say that if someone refuses to accept payment for something they sent to you, you are breaking the law? Where does it say that if they refund your money you are breaking the law?

It doesn't and I never said that ti did. I'm not the one posting some sort pf moral justification to break the law.
I

"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." -Neitzche

mbassoc2003
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Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 6:51 pm

1. Actions result in a consequesnces as single events in time. It cannot be theft on four seperate occasions. Is it at the point at which you don't receive the item and ask for a refund? Is it at the point at which the seller returns your payment? Is it at the point when the mail man delivered a delayed package? Or is it at the point at which your payment is then unclaimed? I thought the question was clear. :oops:

The rest of that reply is fluff. Me advocating an action as a result of a personal experience some time after the event, and holding the opinion that it may be a suitable means of detering or exacting retribution, does not make my actions theft. Neither in fact, nor in Law. I have never purchased or sold anything to this individual since to the best of my knowledge or recollection.

2. Can you catagorically tell the board that they are one and the same individual, and offer substantive proof. I cannot. I just have a feeling that they are the same basd on writing style, supposed location of account and their manerisms here briefly? I have requested their registered home address, e-mail address and telephone number, and presumably, they should tally approximately with the area codes, vicinity, etc, that we already have on record for previous incarnations. I have not managed to get this information and carry out those checks yet, but if you have, you have kept that information secret from the board. We have asked you to substantiate your claim with evidence. I am trying. Are you?

3. Now I get the question. No. If Jonb came on hear and said the offered items for sale and only shipped to those people who he knew were honest buyers, and didn't ship to those he knew were eBay fraudsters, that would be a whole different ballgame, and I'm sure it would make for a hearty and charged thread. I would only be able to make my mind up on that position if Jonb offered up proof that those he 'screwed' were fraudsters, and that proof were compelling, truthful and able to be corroberated. We all make our own moral judgement on whether or not such actions are justified, but the only the person commiting the theft is the thief. Those who think it may be morally justified are not thieved for holding such an opinion or voicing it.

4. Well we seem to agree here then or did I not understand that right. It is not against the law to receive a refund or to have funds refused in payment for goods received. That sort of destroys your accusation that I am a thief and stole goods from Jonb.

Holding opinions and talking about them doesn't make my actions criminal. You seem to have taken the position that because I was happy at the outcome of a situation I found myself in some 5 years ago, and because I realised that I was one of the few people who came off better rather than worse for their dealings with Jonb, that made me a criminal and that the situation was in some way orchistarted by me with intent to commit theft. As a newbie to the forum and hobby at the time, events unfolded as they did, much the same way as some here bought goods from Lisa's Stuff and said that they do not believe's dishonest. I chatted with the guy and he seemed genuine, spinning a story of his brother having died and left him a D&D collection he was selling. So I bought, he went bad and I sought advice from fellow forum members. I followed that advice. You alone seem to have taken up the position that if he won't reply to correspondence or claim his funds that makes me a thief. This is not the case in Law in either of our countries, and that is why I feel accused and seek clarification on exactly which point I become the thief. It seems as though our respective countries laws do not consider it theft.

This week I've been mostly eating . . . The white ones with the little red flecks in them.

Last edited by mbassoc2003 on Sun Feb 07, 2010 6:55 pm, edited 3 times in total.

Badmike
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Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 6:53 pm

Guys, it's been three pages. Can we agree to move on? I think anything that needed to be said by both sides has been stated, in detail. I feel dirty like I'm watching my parents argue or something, as this convo has turned into Ian vs BC with nothing constructive being done and no one convincing the other. Take it to PMs maybe?

Mike B.

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Improv
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Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 7:08 pm

Badmike wrote:Guys, it's been three pages. Can we agree to move on? I think anything that needed to be said by both sides has been stated, in detail. I feel dirty like I'm watching my parents argue or something, as this convo has turned into Ian vs BC with nothing constructive being done and no one convincing the other. Take it to PMs maybe?

Mike B.

Only three pages? Thats short by our standards Mike, the jonb thread alone is at 39 pages ... :lol:

On a serious note Mike is right ... time to ease up. When conversations degenerate into personal insults it is time to pack up and go home.

"... and may I remind you that this ain't the end. I can still kick some ass." - Tom Petty

TheHistorian
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Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 11:57 pm

Badmike wrote:Guys, it's been three pages. Can we agree to move on? I think anything that needed to be said by both sides has been stated, in detail. I feel dirty like I'm watching my parents argue or something, as this convo has turned into Ian vs BC with nothing constructive being done and no one convincing the other. Take it to PMs maybe?

Mike B.

Wait, someone is actually reading all of... whatever this is?

ashmire13
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Posted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 2:43 am

thought it was Wimbledon... :wink:

Rolls a '3'

"Did I hit.....?"

Tharizdun
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Posted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 5:00 am

I like both posters ~objectively~ and hope this ends as well.

Ask me about my new M16!

lawrenson
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Posted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 6:05 am

Hi,

I have to admit, when I heard that one of the shipping pools I am in was going to Ian, I was slightly worried.

Its just his attitude to theft, plus his promotions of Cougarrinard, makes him appear a bit untrustworthy.

Cheers,
Malc

I have a plan so cunning, you could put a tail on it and call it a weasel.

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