R.I.P.: Dragon and Dungeon magazines
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Post Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 2:46 pm 
 

- Corn is subsidized in the U.S. so HFCS is a cheaper sweetener than sugar.

wotc boards must be using hfcs.

  

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Post Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 3:10 pm 
 

I think that the cancellation of Dragon (when Paizo was apparently making money off of it) is possibly equivalent to a New Coke type fiasco.

I presume that Goodman is making money off of Dungeon Crawl Classics.

Why doesn't WOTC try a limited publishing effort that would bring AD&D Classic back to our market niche?  The silver anniversary stuff seemed to be pretty popular....

If it did not sell they could always discontinue the line.

How about a Classic Greyhawk line?

Mark   8)


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Post Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 5:47 pm 
 

I must admit that although I haven't picked up a Dragon or Dungeon for years now I'm still upset by news of their demise. My first issue was number 6 of The Dragon. I think this is funeral pyre for the remains of TSR. There will be no connection for many of us who have no interest in 3E and its subsequent incarnations.

It is interesting how the game originally targeted wargamers and college students and now its directed at 11-15 year old crowd. Certainly there is nothing wrong with developing a new target audience but something tells me that the products they produce herein won't nearly have the staying power of the prior editions.

Maybe I'll add this to my time-traveling-change-the-future-events-list?

1. Create an internet auction site
2. Save John Conner
3. Prevent the financial collapse of TSR Inc. under Gary Gygax
4. Have the Philadelphia Eagles select Tom Brady in round 5 of the 2000 NFL Draft
5. Kill John Conner


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Post Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 7:58 am 
 

Well, the plot thickens even further on this story.  WotC yanked the Dragonlance License effective end of year 2007:

http://boards1.wizards.com/leaving.php? ... 10040.aspx

This to me means its pretty much a foregone conclusion that something really big is on the horizon.  And realistically it can only mean 1 of 2 possibilites:

1)  Wizards is getting all of its ducks in a row because they are preparing for the release of 4.0 in the not so distant future.  I imagine that with them taking this harsh of an action by refusing to not renew licensing agreements, that they will also not be rewewing the OGL and the SRD for 4.0.

2)   Wizards is getting all of its ducks in a row, because they are planning on selling(or at least trying to sell) the Dungeons & Dragons brand.  Its reasonable to assume that in order to make the brand as appealing as possible to a potential buyer(assuming that one has not already been found if there is in fact a a sale), that they do not have licensing agreements in place with other companies that would likely bog down a new owners own desires for the game.

Now, I am not sure if either one is the most likely scenario, however the fact that pulled the plug on one of thier best possible advertising outlets i.e Dragon Magazine that could have pimped the hell out of the upcoming 4.0 release(if in fact they would still be planning it), really makes we wonder if perhaps its not option number 2.  I say that because, seriously, if you are planning are to release a new edition of the game, killing off one of your best forms of mainstream media advertisement is not the smartest decision in the world.  Even if your planned new edition fo the game relies a lot more on miniatures and perhaps digital content as has been rumored already, and therefore doesn't need or even have much use for an in print magazine publication to support it doesn't it make a whole hell of lot more sense to use the current magazine publication an outlet to pimp your new product for the 6 months to a year before pulling the rug out from underneath it?    It is going to be really interesting to see how this all works out.....


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Post Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 9:28 am 
 

bclarkie wrote:Well, the plot thickens even further on this story.  WotC yanked the Dragonlance License effective end of year 2007:

http://boards1.wizards.com/leaving.php? ... 10040.aspx


I hear they are planning to release a Dragonlance animated movie.  Keifer Sutherland and Lucy Lawless staring as voices of Raistlen and Goldmoon respectively.  I imagine it means that WOTC would then release there own Dragonlance stuff to capitilize on this event!

Here is a link anyway

http://www.dragonlance-movie.com/

:D


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Post Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 9:45 am 
 

Yeah! But expect another "Dungeons & Dragons...this is not a game" kiddies film. Remember just how bad that movie was? I remember thinking "great Jeremy Irons is going to be in it". He He.

Oh! for a proper adult D&D type movie...at least one where people actually get decapitated and stuff! Another Conan Movie with Arnie would
be excellent.


Last edited by ATOM on Tue Apr 24, 2007 9:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
  


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Post Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 9:46 am 
 

Blackmoor wrote:
I hear they are planning to release a Dragonlance animated movie.  Keifer Sutherland and Lucy Lawless staring as voices of Raistlen and Goldmoon respectively.  I imagine it means that WOTC would then release there own Dragonlance stuff to capitilize on this event!

Here is a link anyway

http://www.dragonlance-movie.com/

:D


Except the film is slated for Autumn 2007.  :)   Its kind of hard to market merchandise for a movie that is 3 months old. :wink:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0825245/releaseinfo


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Post Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 11:08 am 
 

I posted this over on DF, but here is something more to think about.

Well, just throwing another log into the fire, but I have been thinking that perhaps the first shot fired in this situation may not have in fact been the termination of Paizo's license.  I am thinking that perhaps, the first shot was actually fired off 5 months ago when Peter Adkinson decided to not continue on with GenCon SoCal.  I know that in his public statement declaring its end, he indicated that it just wasn't drawing enough, however there may have been more to it than that.   I mean, if there was anyone outside of WotC/Hasbro's board of directors who knew something big was on the horizon, something that could throw huge amount of doubt into the future of the brand, it would be Peter Adkinson. So I am wondering, if at least in part his decision to ixnay GenCon SoCal had more to with something more than just a reduction in attendance.

I also think that it will very interesting to see if the pdf download sites(RPGnow & DrivethruRPG) also fall in the coming months here leading up to GenCon  2007.  If they do, expect all hell to break loose. :)


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Post Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 11:14 am 
 

bclarkie wrote:I posted this over on DF, but here is something more to think about.

Well, just throwing another log into the fire, but I have been thinking that perhaps the first shot fired in this situation may not have in fact been the termination of Paizo's license.  I am thinking that perhaps, the first shot was actually fired off 5 months ago when Peter Adkinson decided to not continue on with GenCon SoCal.  I know that in his public statement declaring its end, he indicated that it just wasn't drawing enough, however there may have been more to it than that.   I mean, if there was anyone outside of WotC/Hasbro's board of directors who knew something big was on the horizon, something that could throw huge amount of doubt into the future of the brand, it would be Peter Adkinson. So I am wondering, if at least in part his decision to ixnay GenCon SoCal had more to with something more than just a reduction in attendance.

I also think that it will very interesting to see if the pdf download sites(RPGnow & DrivethruRPG) also fall in the coming months here leading up to GenCon  2007.  If they do, expect all hell to break loose. :)


I love a good mystery, :?  I wonder what is really going on.  Is it a smart business move? 8O   A real blunder?  :lol:  What is going on at the high levels of this industry?  I imagine all will be revealed at GenCon this year in August! :?:  :?:


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Post Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 11:23 am 
 

And it sure beats a discussion of the sugar/sweetner content of Coke.
Artifical sweetners gave lab animals brain tumors....think on that Diet Coke fans!

  


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Post Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 12:03 pm 
 

hmmm... interesting. Can't say I ever read any dragon or dungeon magazines that didn't have something to do with Planescape (i'm a rather particular collector) and they never seemed that easy to find anyway, only one store ever stocked them.
still, it's sad to see them go.

More online content.. hmm.. could go either way. Personally, I don't like things in PDF... but that's because I hate reading off a screen and/or having to waste my ink and paper printing stuff off. I like hard copies of things. I think i'm still one of those people who cant stand buying digital things because it feels wrong. I want to be able to hold my purchase in my hands, examine it from all angles.. etc etc.. lol. Its why I still buy CDs after all.

As for the canning of certain suppliments.. wasn't that long ago they rereleased dragonlance was it? bizzare. Maybe all those endless monstermanuals and such forth have driven them finally mad.
4th ed? eugh... just what we need... reackon they'll nerf rangers again? A repeat of the 3rd ed fiasco so we have to have 4.5 and more online errata asap? or you think they'll get it right this time?

I like to think wotc have more sense than to sell D&D, its a huge high profile name and a great title to own the rights to. Surely its one of the few rpg titles that's fairly secure, the one every single being on the planet has heard of. but hey, if they do sell, kudos to whever gets it.. oh yes


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Post Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 12:24 pm 
 

bclarkie wrote:I am thinking that perhaps, the first shot was actually fired off 5 months ago when Peter Adkinson decided to not continue on with GenCon SoCal.


I highly doubt it. Peter doesn't 'license' GenCon; Peter (or rather GenCon LLC) OWNS GenCon, lock stock & barrel.

SoCal was bleeding cash, profusely.

  

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Post Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 12:55 pm 
 

ATOM wrote:And it sure beats a discussion of the sugar/sweetner content of Coke.
Artifical sweetners gave lab animals brain tumors....think on that Diet Coke fans!


Sluuuuuuuuurp!!! Ah!  Always love the first Diet Coke of the day!!!  :wink:

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Post Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 1:02 pm 
 

bclarkie wrote:2)   Wizards is getting all of its ducks in a row, because they are planning on selling(or at least trying to sell) the Dungeons & Dragons brand.

I also think some sort of big news is coming in 2007 (either this week at GAMA or this summer at GenCon), and I'm not necessarily disagreeing with this hypothesis, but I have to ask ... who the hell is left that could buy the D&D brand?

Gaming in the U.S. is practically all under one roof now: Hasborg has absorbed it all. The d20 publishers that are hanging on (Alderac, et. al.) don't seem big enough to be able to pull it off ... the second-biggest manufacturer of CCGs is an old baseball-card company (Upper Deck) ... the oldest RPG-maker that hasn't already been assimilated is either Flying Buffalo or Steve Jackson Games. I'm just not seeing who the logical purchaser would be.

Unless ... unless it's not a gaming company at all. Or unless it's not an American-based company. Or both. 8O

Anyway, I'm mostly just thinking aloud here; my guesses are as equally in the dark as anyone else's. I am pretty sure, though, that something big will be happening in gaming-land in 2007.

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Post Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 1:22 pm 
 

What about a public traded company such as Games Workshop Group PLC?
They had 2006 sales of 115.2 million pounds with an operating profit of 4.2 million as of fiscal year ending April 2006.

They would be in a position already with market penetration, established distribution network etc.

Plus their name has already been associated with the D&D brand over the last two decades.


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Post Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 1:40 pm 
 

ExTSR wrote:
I highly doubt it. Peter doesn't 'license' GenCon; Peter (or rather GenCon LLC) OWNS GenCon, lock stock & barrel.

SoCal was bleeding cash, profusely.


I know Adkinson owns GenCon, I was leaning more towards the uncertainity that might be brought on by the potential impending sale of the brand name.  You obviously know a lot more about it than I do though, so I am certainly not arguing your point. :)


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Post Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 1:41 pm 
 

Xaxaxe wrote:I also think some sort of big news is coming in 2007 (either this week at GAMA or this summer at GenCon), and I'm not necessarily disagreeing with this hypothesis, but I have to ask ... who the hell is left that could buy the D&D brand?

Gaming in the U.S. is practically all under one roof now: Hasborg has absorbed it all. The d20 publishers that are hanging on (Alderac, et. al.) don't seem big enough to be able to pull it off ... the second-biggest manufacturer of CCGs is an old baseball-card company (Upper Deck) ... the oldest RPG-maker that hasn't already been assimilated is either Flying Buffalo or Steve Jackson Games. I'm just not seeing who the logical purchaser would be.

Unless ... unless it's not a gaming company at all. Or unless it's not an American-based company. Or both. 8O

Anyway, I'm mostly just thinking aloud here; my guesses are as equally in the dark as anyone else's. I am pretty sure, though, that something big will be happening in gaming-land in 2007.


Your guess is as good as mine man. :)   I just really get the feeling that there is more to this then just the release of D&D 4.0.


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Post Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 1:43 pm 
 

I wonder about a sale of the Dungeons and Dragons brand name.

Whether there is a tabletop RPG called Dungeons and Dragons or not, the name itself will have selling power for as much as three more decades.

Movies...video games...toys...online role-playing.

Lots of stuff can sell with Dungeons and Dragons on it.  

If I were to consider who might be in line to buy the Dungeons and Dragons name, my first suspect would be:  Microsoft.

Located only a few miles from WOTC, am surprised that Microsoft allowed Hasbro to buy such a nice morsel of game-selling power.

For a company that owns the Bettman Archives, owning WOTC...or the Dungeons and Dragons brand name as a whole...seems like a no-brainer.

Although Microsoft will be interested in WOTC mostly as a vehicle for selling video games, it seems to me that the Microsoft personnel might have a clue what a tabletop RPG is supposed to look like.

The imminent release of Dungeons and Dragons 4.0 would be a part of the sale terms...possibly just after the acquisition.

Hopefully, they will give the rules more thought this time so we don't have another knife in the back like 3.5.

Mark   8)


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Post Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 2:10 pm 
 

FormCritic wrote:Located only a few miles from WOTC, am surprised that Microsoft allowed Hasbro to buy such a nice morsel of game-selling power.

For a company that owns the Bettman Archives, owning WOTC...or the Dungeons and Dragons brand name as a whole...seems like a no-brainer.


I dunno; I think maybe we overestimate the degree of recognition the Dungeons and Dragons brand name has in the general population.  I was with your line of thinking about Microsoft, until I realized I have no idea what the "Bettman Archives" are....  What are they?

  


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Post Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 2:31 pm 
 

I could be very wrong here, but as far as I know, there's no 4.0 on the horizon at the moment (3e works too well I'm told).

It does all seem very suspicious though. Kind of exciting as well, (for good or ill), we'll have to wait & see what unfolds.

It could be that they know Dragonlance is a line that sells - and thus have bigger plans for it. I would expect a couple of one (two etc.) spin offs from old  & new campaign worlds in the future. But not the full support of a "world" (ie. a long running publishing of items for say Dark Sun under 3e).

- Just my opinion though.  :-)


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