R.I.P.: Dragon and Dungeon magazines
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Post Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 7:38 am 
 

FormCritic wrote:I think WOTC should worry about what people on these types of forums think.

...

They honestly believe themselves to be geniuses...but their new direction sounds a lot like New Coke.

Either way, I don't think my calling the WOTC executives ass monkeys is the way to reach the brains of WOTC executives.


Maybe we'll be seeing a resurgence of Dragon as "Dragon Classic" (ala Coca Cola Classic) in the foreseeable future :)?  I remember when New Coke came out, and as a big fan of "Old Coke" (Pepsi's too sweet for me, and that's the direction they took New Coke) I hated it.  As I recall, it was only a matter of a few months before Coke Classic was out; the uproar from consumers had a real impact.  Maybe I'm taking the analogy too far...

Although I never subscribed, I've been buying issues of the magazine since the #50-range onwards, even occasionally picking up Paizo-published ones, though not many.  IMO, the "feel" has just not been the same in recent years, and the soul has already departed.  If we're going to insist on humanizing the magazine(s), which I agree is a gross overreaction and a little insulting to people who have lost loved ones, let's think of it more as a great-grandparent who has been seriously ill for many years; maybe it's almost better if it goes...

  

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Post Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 11:04 am 
 

I have a friend who is a Coca Cola employee.

He has a conspiracy theory about New Coke....

He thinks it was all a cover so that Coka Cola could switch their formula from sugar to high fructose corn syrup...and then pretend to "return" to the old Coke after rallying customers behind what was actually a new flavor.  (It would taste good by comparison.)

At least of part of his story is true...the switch was made.

I also know that Mexican consumers in America specifically prefer the taste of Coca Cola shipped from plants in Mexico...where sugar is cheaper and the formula still uses it.

Back to our regularly scheduled topic....

WOTC clearly wants to transition us to a new flavor.

Mark   8)


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Post Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 11:34 am 
 

FormCritic wrote:I have a friend who is a Coca Cola employee.

He has a conspiracy theory about New Coke....

He thinks it was all a cover so that Coka Cola could switch their formula from sugar to high fructose corn syrup...and then pretend to "return" to the old Coke after rallying customers behind what was actually a new flavor.  (It would taste good by comparison.)

At least of part of his story is true...the switch was made.

I also know that Mexican consumers in America specifically prefer the taste of Coca Cola shipped from plants in Mexico...where sugar is cheaper and the formula still uses it.

Mark   8)


Your friend is correct.  I have a former Coca Cola employee in my family and he said the same thing back in the late 80's when they pulled the switcheroo.  When New Coke was yanked and 'Classic Coke' reappeared, no one thought that Classic Coke tasted quite the same as it originally did.

Dr. Pepper is the same way.  You can still buy 6-pack glass bottles and singles in some stores in North Texas.  They still have a plant here in Texas that still makes the original cane sugar recipe.  It is a bit pricey though.

  


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Post Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 11:46 am 
 

Interesting.  I do recall noticing a difference in taste, but thought it was my imagination--guess I fell for the switcheroo.  Won't fall for it with Dragon Cola, though, I can tell you that much :).

  

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Post Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 12:05 pm 
 

FormCritic wrote:I have a friend who is a Coca Cola employee.

He has a conspiracy theory about New Coke....

He thinks it was all a cover so that Coka Cola could switch their formula from sugar to high fructose corn syrup...and then pretend to "return" to the old Coke after rallying customers behind what was actually a new flavor.  (It would taste good by comparison.)

At least of part of his story is true...the switch was made.

I also know that Mexican consumers in America specifically prefer the taste of Coca Cola shipped from plants in Mexico...where sugar is cheaper and the formula still uses it.

Back to our regularly scheduled topic....

WOTC clearly wants to transition us to a new flavor.

Mark   8)


The New Coke fiasco was over-thinking marketing "geniuses" who screwed the pooch.  During taste tests, the "New Coke" brand blew out the charts. It tested in the 90th percentile of every single age group, ethnic group, lovers of Coke, Pepsi, Dr. Pepper, whatever, it was the highest rated drink they had ever taste tested. Coke thought they had a home run on their hands, and a way to grab back part of the market that Pepsi had taken. New Coke's taste tests, however, were fatally flawed. A taste test by definition is a "sip" of a drink, at the most a small dixie cup.  What the New Coke advocates failed to realize was that the much sweeter taste was far more palatable as a sip than an entire can/cup of the stuff.  As a can, the stuff was sweet enough to make you gag...ala closer to Pepsi's formula, and not the type of taste your typical Coke lover wants.  New Coke was rushed into production, and the attendent fiasco is well chronicled.  Marketing heads rolled over this one....and as a result the "taste test" has lost a lot of it's cachet in the marketing world. Malcom Gladwell has a pretty in depth study of the screw up in his book "The Tipping Point".  
 But being the conspiracy lover I am, I don't discount the other explanation either....!

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Post Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 12:13 pm 
 

Eh, see now I'm a Pepsi drinker if I was to choose..course I don't drink much soda (or pop up in these parts :) ).
Wonder if Coca Cola will go back to its early early recipe, Columbia Coca Cola bottling plants anyone?

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Post Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 12:59 pm 
 

I think (I seem to recall, that is) that it is only in the US that Coke is sweetened with High Fructose Corn Syrup - everywhere else it is sugar.


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Post Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 1:59 pm 
 

FormCritic wrote:At least of part of his story is true...the switch was made.

Well yes, but apparently Coca-cola had started making the switch before they did the whole "New Coke" thing.

red_bus wrote:I think (I seem to recall, that is) that it is only in the US that Coke is sweetened with High Fructose Corn Syrup - everywhere else it is sugar.

I don't know if "everywhere else" is accurate but sugar is definitely used in areas other than the U.S.

Corn is subsidized in the U.S. so HFCS is a cheaper sweetener than sugar.

I believe soybeans are subsidized, too. Between the two of them (soy and corn syrup), they're in almost everything.



  

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Post Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 2:46 pm 
 

- Corn is subsidized in the U.S. so HFCS is a cheaper sweetener than sugar.

wotc boards must be using hfcs.

  

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Post Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 3:10 pm 
 

I think that the cancellation of Dragon (when Paizo was apparently making money off of it) is possibly equivalent to a New Coke type fiasco.

I presume that Goodman is making money off of Dungeon Crawl Classics.

Why doesn't WOTC try a limited publishing effort that would bring AD&D Classic back to our market niche?  The silver anniversary stuff seemed to be pretty popular....

If it did not sell they could always discontinue the line.

How about a Classic Greyhawk line?

Mark   8)


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Post Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 5:47 pm 
 

I must admit that although I haven't picked up a Dragon or Dungeon for years now I'm still upset by news of their demise. My first issue was number 6 of The Dragon. I think this is funeral pyre for the remains of TSR. There will be no connection for many of us who have no interest in 3E and its subsequent incarnations.

It is interesting how the game originally targeted wargamers and college students and now its directed at 11-15 year old crowd. Certainly there is nothing wrong with developing a new target audience but something tells me that the products they produce herein won't nearly have the staying power of the prior editions.

Maybe I'll add this to my time-traveling-change-the-future-events-list?

1. Create an internet auction site
2. Save John Conner
3. Prevent the financial collapse of TSR Inc. under Gary Gygax
4. Have the Philadelphia Eagles select Tom Brady in round 5 of the 2000 NFL Draft
5. Kill John Conner


Hmm, no, I don't have a gambling problem, I'm winning, and winning is not a problem. That's like saying Michael Jordan has a basketball problem, or Def Leppard has an awesomeness problem. So why don't y'all pour some sugar on that?

  


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Post Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 7:58 am 
 

Well, the plot thickens even further on this story.  WotC yanked the Dragonlance License effective end of year 2007:

http://boards1.wizards.com/leaving.php? ... 10040.aspx

This to me means its pretty much a foregone conclusion that something really big is on the horizon.  And realistically it can only mean 1 of 2 possibilites:

1)  Wizards is getting all of its ducks in a row because they are preparing for the release of 4.0 in the not so distant future.  I imagine that with them taking this harsh of an action by refusing to not renew licensing agreements, that they will also not be rewewing the OGL and the SRD for 4.0.

2)   Wizards is getting all of its ducks in a row, because they are planning on selling(or at least trying to sell) the Dungeons & Dragons brand.  Its reasonable to assume that in order to make the brand as appealing as possible to a potential buyer(assuming that one has not already been found if there is in fact a a sale), that they do not have licensing agreements in place with other companies that would likely bog down a new owners own desires for the game.

Now, I am not sure if either one is the most likely scenario, however the fact that pulled the plug on one of thier best possible advertising outlets i.e Dragon Magazine that could have pimped the hell out of the upcoming 4.0 release(if in fact they would still be planning it), really makes we wonder if perhaps its not option number 2.  I say that because, seriously, if you are planning are to release a new edition of the game, killing off one of your best forms of mainstream media advertisement is not the smartest decision in the world.  Even if your planned new edition fo the game relies a lot more on miniatures and perhaps digital content as has been rumored already, and therefore doesn't need or even have much use for an in print magazine publication to support it doesn't it make a whole hell of lot more sense to use the current magazine publication an outlet to pimp your new product for the 6 months to a year before pulling the rug out from underneath it?    It is going to be really interesting to see how this all works out.....


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Post Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 9:28 am 
 

bclarkie wrote:Well, the plot thickens even further on this story.  WotC yanked the Dragonlance License effective end of year 2007:

http://boards1.wizards.com/leaving.php? ... 10040.aspx


I hear they are planning to release a Dragonlance animated movie.  Keifer Sutherland and Lucy Lawless staring as voices of Raistlen and Goldmoon respectively.  I imagine it means that WOTC would then release there own Dragonlance stuff to capitilize on this event!

Here is a link anyway

http://www.dragonlance-movie.com/

:D


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Post Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 9:45 am 
 

Yeah! But expect another "Dungeons & Dragons...this is not a game" kiddies film. Remember just how bad that movie was? I remember thinking "great Jeremy Irons is going to be in it". He He.

Oh! for a proper adult D&D type movie...at least one where people actually get decapitated and stuff! Another Conan Movie with Arnie would
be excellent.


Last edited by ATOM on Tue Apr 24, 2007 9:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
  


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Post Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 9:46 am 
 

Blackmoor wrote:
I hear they are planning to release a Dragonlance animated movie.  Keifer Sutherland and Lucy Lawless staring as voices of Raistlen and Goldmoon respectively.  I imagine it means that WOTC would then release there own Dragonlance stuff to capitilize on this event!

Here is a link anyway

http://www.dragonlance-movie.com/

:D


Except the film is slated for Autumn 2007.  :)   Its kind of hard to market merchandise for a movie that is 3 months old. :wink:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0825245/releaseinfo


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Post Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 11:08 am 
 

I posted this over on DF, but here is something more to think about.

Well, just throwing another log into the fire, but I have been thinking that perhaps the first shot fired in this situation may not have in fact been the termination of Paizo's license.  I am thinking that perhaps, the first shot was actually fired off 5 months ago when Peter Adkinson decided to not continue on with GenCon SoCal.  I know that in his public statement declaring its end, he indicated that it just wasn't drawing enough, however there may have been more to it than that.   I mean, if there was anyone outside of WotC/Hasbro's board of directors who knew something big was on the horizon, something that could throw huge amount of doubt into the future of the brand, it would be Peter Adkinson. So I am wondering, if at least in part his decision to ixnay GenCon SoCal had more to with something more than just a reduction in attendance.

I also think that it will very interesting to see if the pdf download sites(RPGnow & DrivethruRPG) also fall in the coming months here leading up to GenCon  2007.  If they do, expect all hell to break loose. :)


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Post Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 11:14 am 
 

bclarkie wrote:I posted this over on DF, but here is something more to think about.

Well, just throwing another log into the fire, but I have been thinking that perhaps the first shot fired in this situation may not have in fact been the termination of Paizo's license.  I am thinking that perhaps, the first shot was actually fired off 5 months ago when Peter Adkinson decided to not continue on with GenCon SoCal.  I know that in his public statement declaring its end, he indicated that it just wasn't drawing enough, however there may have been more to it than that.   I mean, if there was anyone outside of WotC/Hasbro's board of directors who knew something big was on the horizon, something that could throw huge amount of doubt into the future of the brand, it would be Peter Adkinson. So I am wondering, if at least in part his decision to ixnay GenCon SoCal had more to with something more than just a reduction in attendance.

I also think that it will very interesting to see if the pdf download sites(RPGnow & DrivethruRPG) also fall in the coming months here leading up to GenCon  2007.  If they do, expect all hell to break loose. :)


I love a good mystery, :?  I wonder what is really going on.  Is it a smart business move? 8O   A real blunder?  :lol:  What is going on at the high levels of this industry?  I imagine all will be revealed at GenCon this year in August! :?:  :?:


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Post Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 11:23 am 
 

And it sure beats a discussion of the sugar/sweetner content of Coke.
Artifical sweetners gave lab animals brain tumors....think on that Diet Coke fans!

  
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