R.I.P.: Dragon and Dungeon magazines
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Post Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 12:02 am 
 

deimos3428 wrote:Well, their "damage control" agents of doom are now out in full force...just look at the response I got when I tried to have a little fun with them.  It only took a suspicious 7 minutes for a response:

http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.p ... 713&page=3

You'd think they realize they messed up and fix it, but they'd rather spar with me over semantics.  I think it'll be a fun week!


OK, to be fair. It's a hard position for the moderators. They have no control, power or say in this situation. Probably most of them are narked by the loss of the magazines as well. The CoC means they can shut down topics like that if it's disrupting the day to day business of the boards (e.g. causing too much disharmony to the community). Moderating stuff like this is always going to be hard for them, because they understand where people are coming from, but sometimes things do get *too* disrputive & pretty ugly (like they had to ban the discussion of 3rd ed on the OOP board for a time because it caused too many flame wars there).


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Post Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 12:08 am 
 

What? huh? .... There is a real serious issue here, to try and pass it off as some sort of minor inconvience that will just pass in time is a real diservice and I dont know how else to express it in a civilized , sanatized manner... but something is really messed up here and the futile efforts of damage control... well everybody is watching.. and this history and its reprecutions will be recorded and .... blah  I hope they get whats comin... major capital loss .... and lots more.


Last edited by Afrika Corps on Mon Apr 23, 2007 12:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
  

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Post Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 12:16 am 
 

It is hard to criticize Wizards of the Coast for not wanting their own discussion boards to be used to flame them.

They do, however, need to listen.


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Post Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 12:32 am 
 

And oh yea, why do a few people want to subjucate this forum and turn it into a rememberance of what was the best articles of days of past of Dragon Magazine while the murder and suicicide of this is taking place right now. Dragon Magazine did not go peacefully into the night, it was kidnapped, butchered and exploited as a hostage of the powers in control. To think that this evolution is somehow natural and warranted without any sort of outrage and anger is jacked up. Where are you at?

  

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Post Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 1:03 am 
 

I'm not happy about Dragon magazine being cancelled, either. Although I didn't read much of it since about issue #68 - I believe that was the one with the Tim Hildebrand cover(?) - I've still picked up an issue here or there. I had to pick up the Shannara issue a few years back, just to get the stats for some of my favorite characters.

While that is all fine and good, the folks on this forum - the true D&D fans from WAY back - aren't the people to whom D&D 3.5 is targeted. Great, if we're on board, but if not, they could care less. They're after the NEW generation of 12-24 year olds, the ones who want something "cooler" and more "hip" than the stuff we enjoyed.

As much as I hate to say it - or even THINK it - we are the "has been" generation of gamers who WoTC could give a damn less about. As long as D&D is successful in their target market, who cares what the "old-timers" say?

To us, Dragon and Dungeon are an institution. To new gamers, they're just game magazines. And those are the people I believe WoTC is catering to....


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Post Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 1:10 am 
 

Afrika Corps wrote:And oh yea, why do a few people want to subjucate this forum and turn it into a rememberance of what was the best articles of days of past of Dragon Magazine while the murder and suicicide of this is taking place right now. Dragon Magazine did not go peacefully into the night, it was kidnapped, butchered and exploited as a hostage of the powers in control. To think that this evolution is somehow natural and warranted without any sort of outrage and anger is jacked up. Where are you at?


Because it's a GAME DUDE. Remembering breeds nostalgia and is fun; besides, I haven't been buying Dragon since 3rd edition came out, so why would I feel outraged? To me this magazine "died" about 7 years ago and I"m already over it.  Plus it was a publication...I save my anger for things that matter, not fantasy publications getting cancelled when with the materials I have at hand I can play D&D for the next 50 years of my life and never worry about another magazine again.
    Talking about a GAME as if it was a real person the way you are doing only creeps everyone out.  A magazine cannot be murdered, raped,or butchered. Get a grip.
 If Dragon and Dungeon mags started up again tomorrow, that's great.  If they never published another issue, I don't really care. As I said, "My" Dragon and Dungeon ended long ago.  Don't expect me to get excited over something I never read or used.

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Post Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 1:30 am 
 

Center_Stage_Hobbies wrote:As much as I hate to say it - or even THINK it - we are the "has been" generation of gamers who WoTC could give a damn less about.

I wouldn't give up on us that quickly ... one thing those of us from the 1e generation have (for the sake of argument, let's say that the age-range I'm talking about is 33 to 47) is lots of disposable income.

Wizards knows we're out here, believe me. They might be stupid, but they're not blind. Clearly, we are not the target audience for 3e/3.5/4e/7e/D&D X/D&D 2010 or whatever else they're up to in Renton, but our sheer buying power makes us a factor in their decision-making. Not the factor, certainly, but a factor nonetheless.

+++++

As sort of a sidebar, it's been interesting to note that the Dragon decision is also being harshly criticized by a pretty vocal faction of the younger/3e/never-played-1e crowd. God love the little bastards — they just wants their magazines back!  :)

That's definitely not good news for WotC, as it's clear that this whole "online initiative" farce is aimed directly at the suposedly younger, hipper, more computer-savvy crowd. Essentially, quite a few people from their target audience are telling them that they will not be participating in any sort of e-zine nonsense.

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Post Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 1:39 am 
 

Center_Stage_Hobbies wrote:To us, Dragon and Dungeon are an institution. To new gamers, they're just game magazines. And those are the people I believe WoTC is catering to....


Excellent point made here - look at what this site is about -

What You Won't Find Here:

Much information at all on items produced 1990 and later.  The primary focus of The Acaeum is on items of collectible value; the sad fact is that most items produced after the mid 1980's are pretty much still going for cover price at auctions.

Info on playing D&D.  There's a plethora of other web sites that cover every possible aspect of playing this game, as well as provide homemade modules, accessories, etc.  The Acaeum was created in response to a perceived need for hard data on collecting D&D materials. We are the only known web site on the Internet currently doing so.


While I can't help but be a bit disapointed by the decision to cancel both mags I don't really think that WOTC will be too bothered about what the subscribers here think - the current magazine market is very different to the average subscriber here

It does seem like a huge decision, and IMO, must surely make no financial sense whatsoever. HOWEVER my opinion and financial sense are not things that generally go well together!! - presumably this is a decision made purely as a cold hard business decision. We all know the nonsense that TSR went through - oversimplifying it to say that creative people do not make the shrewdest business decisions but you know where I'm coming from - the decision from WOTC will NOT have been made by the 'creatives', it will have been made with a bottom line in mind.

Nevertheless, as I've said before. a sad day. Both magazines have a place in my heart (and a slightly larger place in my loft!) but somehow the world will continue without them.

(At least now there will be a finite amount of shelf space needed for a complete collection  - somone do the math and let me know how much shelf length I would need if I get myself a complete set of Dungeon/Dragon/Polyhedron and Imagine and a room to keep them in :lol: )


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Post Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 1:54 am 
 

I think WOTC should worry about what people on these types of forums think.

It isn't just the Acaeum members that might be angry.

Remember...their online format is going to be aimed at people who are...online.  If they are getting flack from their online audience, they might want to wonder if they have made the correct decision.

Still...

A game company looks at a game quite differently than their customers might.  They look at profits and generating enough new market to stay in business.  A number of the people criticizing them have not purchased a WOTC product in years.

One thing that they might think about....

A gamer such as myself does not buy large quantities of WOTC materials.  Still, by running weekly games, players like me sustain the larger RPG community.  I don't purchase many products but my players do...  They honestly believe themselves to be geniuses...but their new direction sounds a lot like New Coke.

Either way, I don't think my calling the WOTC executives ass monkeys is the way to reach the brains of WOTC executives.

People who are really angry at WOTC for this decision might write them a reasoned letter informing them of the impact of their genius decision.  That might do more than the ass monkey strategy.

Mark   8)


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Post Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 1:57 am 
 

gyg wrote:
the decision from WOTC will NOT have been made by the 'creatives', it will have been made with a bottom line in mind.


There it is.


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Post Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 7:28 am 
 

Xaxaxe wrote:(for the sake of argument, let's say that the age-range I'm talking about is 33 to 47)


Oh how convent, leave out the younger crowd, and don't even think your argument skills are adequate by using the ol 'for the sake of argument' bit.
You sir have just been Boycotted!

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I'll never spend another cent on Xaxaxe's comments...oh crap I just gave 2, darn it! :wink:

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Post Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 7:35 am 
 

I agree that Wizards (Hasbro) should worry about what the people who use their message boards think - and I know that some of the employees do post there. But it has to be understood that these people can only convey the message/mood to their superiors within the company. The sort of people who work for Wizards who read the boards aren't the ones who make the decisions.

It's sad that Dungeon & Dragon will be lost to the vaults of collectors, but unfortunately, that's the way it is with games (and those of us who prefer to play the older editions should be used to coming to terms with this). I guess my bottom line is, although sad, whatever keeps the game alive in some form for new players. I can't say I like a lot of Wizards or Hasbro's decisions related to the game, but that's the way it is. - I hope that in the future they realise that there is a market for the Dragon & Dungeons magazines & start publishing them again - but until then I think it's wrong of people to rant & be abusive to people like the WizOs who have no say in the situation.

Personally I would say write a letter to Wizards/Hasbro. - Afterall, we're talking paper & pen & a *physical* magazine. In my mind, that would have more weight than emails, boards messages etc.

Hasbro have a different agenda to that of your typical gaming company - for good or ill. We're a small part of their market.

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Post Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 7:38 am 
 

FormCritic wrote:I think WOTC should worry about what people on these types of forums think.

...

They honestly believe themselves to be geniuses...but their new direction sounds a lot like New Coke.

Either way, I don't think my calling the WOTC executives ass monkeys is the way to reach the brains of WOTC executives.


Maybe we'll be seeing a resurgence of Dragon as "Dragon Classic" (ala Coca Cola Classic) in the foreseeable future :)?  I remember when New Coke came out, and as a big fan of "Old Coke" (Pepsi's too sweet for me, and that's the direction they took New Coke) I hated it.  As I recall, it was only a matter of a few months before Coke Classic was out; the uproar from consumers had a real impact.  Maybe I'm taking the analogy too far...

Although I never subscribed, I've been buying issues of the magazine since the #50-range onwards, even occasionally picking up Paizo-published ones, though not many.  IMO, the "feel" has just not been the same in recent years, and the soul has already departed.  If we're going to insist on humanizing the magazine(s), which I agree is a gross overreaction and a little insulting to people who have lost loved ones, let's think of it more as a great-grandparent who has been seriously ill for many years; maybe it's almost better if it goes...

  

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Post Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 11:04 am 
 

I have a friend who is a Coca Cola employee.

He has a conspiracy theory about New Coke....

He thinks it was all a cover so that Coka Cola could switch their formula from sugar to high fructose corn syrup...and then pretend to "return" to the old Coke after rallying customers behind what was actually a new flavor.  (It would taste good by comparison.)

At least of part of his story is true...the switch was made.

I also know that Mexican consumers in America specifically prefer the taste of Coca Cola shipped from plants in Mexico...where sugar is cheaper and the formula still uses it.

Back to our regularly scheduled topic....

WOTC clearly wants to transition us to a new flavor.

Mark   8)


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Post Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 11:34 am 
 

FormCritic wrote:I have a friend who is a Coca Cola employee.

He has a conspiracy theory about New Coke....

He thinks it was all a cover so that Coka Cola could switch their formula from sugar to high fructose corn syrup...and then pretend to "return" to the old Coke after rallying customers behind what was actually a new flavor.  (It would taste good by comparison.)

At least of part of his story is true...the switch was made.

I also know that Mexican consumers in America specifically prefer the taste of Coca Cola shipped from plants in Mexico...where sugar is cheaper and the formula still uses it.

Mark   8)


Your friend is correct.  I have a former Coca Cola employee in my family and he said the same thing back in the late 80's when they pulled the switcheroo.  When New Coke was yanked and 'Classic Coke' reappeared, no one thought that Classic Coke tasted quite the same as it originally did.

Dr. Pepper is the same way.  You can still buy 6-pack glass bottles and singles in some stores in North Texas.  They still have a plant here in Texas that still makes the original cane sugar recipe.  It is a bit pricey though.

  


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Post Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 11:46 am 
 

Interesting.  I do recall noticing a difference in taste, but thought it was my imagination--guess I fell for the switcheroo.  Won't fall for it with Dragon Cola, though, I can tell you that much :).

  

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Post Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 12:05 pm 
 

FormCritic wrote:I have a friend who is a Coca Cola employee.

He has a conspiracy theory about New Coke....

He thinks it was all a cover so that Coka Cola could switch their formula from sugar to high fructose corn syrup...and then pretend to "return" to the old Coke after rallying customers behind what was actually a new flavor.  (It would taste good by comparison.)

At least of part of his story is true...the switch was made.

I also know that Mexican consumers in America specifically prefer the taste of Coca Cola shipped from plants in Mexico...where sugar is cheaper and the formula still uses it.

Back to our regularly scheduled topic....

WOTC clearly wants to transition us to a new flavor.

Mark   8)


The New Coke fiasco was over-thinking marketing "geniuses" who screwed the pooch.  During taste tests, the "New Coke" brand blew out the charts. It tested in the 90th percentile of every single age group, ethnic group, lovers of Coke, Pepsi, Dr. Pepper, whatever, it was the highest rated drink they had ever taste tested. Coke thought they had a home run on their hands, and a way to grab back part of the market that Pepsi had taken. New Coke's taste tests, however, were fatally flawed. A taste test by definition is a "sip" of a drink, at the most a small dixie cup.  What the New Coke advocates failed to realize was that the much sweeter taste was far more palatable as a sip than an entire can/cup of the stuff.  As a can, the stuff was sweet enough to make you gag...ala closer to Pepsi's formula, and not the type of taste your typical Coke lover wants.  New Coke was rushed into production, and the attendent fiasco is well chronicled.  Marketing heads rolled over this one....and as a result the "taste test" has lost a lot of it's cachet in the marketing world. Malcom Gladwell has a pretty in depth study of the screw up in his book "The Tipping Point".  
 But being the conspiracy lover I am, I don't discount the other explanation either....!

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Post Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 12:13 pm 
 

Eh, see now I'm a Pepsi drinker if I was to choose..course I don't drink much soda (or pop up in these parts :) ).
Wonder if Coca Cola will go back to its early early recipe, Columbia Coca Cola bottling plants anyone?

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Post Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 12:59 pm 
 

I think (I seem to recall, that is) that it is only in the US that Coke is sweetened with High Fructose Corn Syrup - everywhere else it is sugar.


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Post Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 1:59 pm 
 

FormCritic wrote:At least of part of his story is true...the switch was made.

Well yes, but apparently Coca-cola had started making the switch before they did the whole "New Coke" thing.

red_bus wrote:I think (I seem to recall, that is) that it is only in the US that Coke is sweetened with High Fructose Corn Syrup - everywhere else it is sugar.

I don't know if "everywhere else" is accurate but sugar is definitely used in areas other than the U.S.

Corn is subsidized in the U.S. so HFCS is a cheaper sweetener than sugar.

I believe soybeans are subsidized, too. Between the two of them (soy and corn syrup), they're in almost everything.



  
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