R.I.P.: Dragon and Dungeon magazines
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Post Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2007 5:36 pm 
 

in re Dragon magazine:

#1: The Game Begins
circa #100: Strike One (Gygax forced out)
#132: Strike Two (Wormy ends)
#236: Strike Three (The Last TSR Issue)
(Game Ends)
I haven't paid much attention to it since.


Other milestones prior to the WotC era are summarized on my Dragonsfoot board.

  

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Post Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2007 7:52 pm 
 

I concur with the sentiments here and I was a Dragon subscriber from #65 on thru #290'ish, as well as a subscriber of Dungeon & Polyhedron. What a shame it was when Polyhedron was extinguished or rather consumed by the changes of Dragon & Dungeon.

As for BClarkie's ponderings, I agree that his ideas have merit, but my other thoughts, after reading the post from Bill "salavating over all the money I've made" Slavicsek, is that they "WIZBRO" (love that moniker BC :lol: ) might be taking Dragon & Dungeon back. If these mags were or are making money, maybe with a higher profit margin than WotC, then it makes business sense to tell Paizo, "Sorry boys, but we are exercising our option and taking these mags back. Go ahead and finish what you've got scheduled and then we take over."  From here, they use these publications or merge them into one and market their new products, even the online ones, using a profit center like magazines. Please re-read this excerpts (sp?) from Bill S.
Bill Slavicsek wrote:This ending isn't an execution—it's an evolution. Now comes the next era. We have a plan.

Yesterday was sad, but it was exciting, too. It's exciting because I know something that you don't know as yet. I know what happens next. And I can't wait to share that with you, in all its glory. But I can't do that today. There are business reasons, of course, and also practical reasons (to be frank, we're still finalizing some of the details). And there's also the fact that DRAGON Magazine and DUNGEON Magazine still have issues coming out from Paizo, and they deserve to have your undivided attention until the torch is officially passed back to us after issues #359 and #150.

I'm proud of <<yada, yada, yada>>, and eventually the Director of all creative endeavors related to D&D.

My team here at Wizards includes many talented and dedicated gamers, including a number of people who started out working on DRAGON Magazine and DUNGEON Magazine. They helped shape and sustain the magazines over the years, and they have tons of creative talent and passion for the game. And all of them are involved in what comes next.

What follows is how this announcement impacted them, and some of the memories it stirred up.

Thanks for listening, and keep on playing!

—Bill Slavicsek, R&D Director for <<yada, yada, yada>>, former Editor-in-Chief of DRAGON Magazine and DUNGEON Magazine;

"custodian of the legend" 8O  :roll:  (a little impressed with ourselves, aren't we 8) )


"Okay, we turn the corner and see a Purple 'WHAT' !?!" . . (the DM rolls a 20 or so he says) . . It all went black right after that.

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Post Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2007 8:22 pm 
 

Good Bye Corporate Dogshit!!!!!!!!!

 I would just like to have my urination on Paizo and WOTC on file. I agree Dragon Magazine and more recently Dungeon Magazine died on me many many issues ago. Those hacks have successfully turned an iconic equilavent of a finely tuned gourmet snack into a low quality stale fast food hamburger.

 My local gaming store has several boxes of back issues of recent Dragon Magazines sitting out for clearance @ 1.00$ each, they dont even sale. Why the hell did WOTC have to buy out TSR...Sacrilage


I cite the the first steps of what I hope will be a colossal failure of these 2 companies and all future endeavors as:

 - A total betrayal / ignorance / appreciation of the classic/roots/history/ and origin of the game

 - Greed..Greed...Greed..Greed

 - Lack of imagination

 - 3rd edition idolization, blind glorification with lockstep obediance and salacious obsession with the average 12 year olds "pokemon" allocation of allowance funds

 - Same goes for the proliferation and shameless promotion and concentration on silly plastic miniatures and self promotion of their own inferior products

  - Piles and Piles and Piles of Dogshit releases that are overpriced and unoriginal...I really get tired of reading throught 2 pages of statistics/feats/abilities/levels/modifiers for every encounter ( can you say page filler) sheesh sometimes an encounter with goblins is just that. Not to mention the cartoony dumbed down artwork for the average 12 year old, so it doesnt scare the mommies.



 Hip Hip Hooray!!!!! Piss on You WOTC and Paizo... now you can get back to what you were meant to do with your collective talent and profit projection analysists: Design a new series of Pokemon cards... or maybe some more goofy plastic toys for kids.. Maybe Hasbro can do a corporate buyout. You souless, gutless Toads.

  

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Post Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2007 9:55 pm 
 

So, I take, Africa Corps, that you aren't going to buy Return to the Expedition to the Barrier Peaksomon?   :lol:


I would like it a lot more if they would just say:

"We weren't making enough cash."

Or

"We didn't like Paizo stealing our thunder."


I most certainly don't like what they are saying, which is:


"We are such a bunch of geniuses that we think we know better than you."


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Post Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2007 11:06 pm 
 

Afrika Corps wrote:Good Bye Corporate Dogshit!!!!!!!!!

 I would just like to have my urination on Paizo and WOTC on file. I agree Dragon Magazine and more recently Dungeon Magazine died on me many many issues ago. Those hacks have successfully turned an iconic equilavent of a finely tuned gourmet snack into a low quality stale fast food hamburger.

 My local gaming store has several boxes of back issues of recent Dragon Magazines sitting out for clearance @ 1.00$ each, they dont even sale. Why the hell did WOTC have to buy out TSR...Sacrilage


I cite the the first steps of what I hope will be a colossal failure of these 2 companies and all future endeavors as:

 - A total betrayal / ignorance / appreciation of the classic/roots/history/ and origin of the game

 - Greed..Greed...Greed..Greed

 - Lack of imagination

 - 3rd edition idolization, blind glorification with lockstep obediance and salacious obsession with the average 12 year olds "pokemon" allocation of allowance funds

 - Same goes for the proliferation and shameless promotion and concentration on silly plastic miniatures and self promotion of their own inferior products

  - Piles and Piles and Piles of Dogshit releases that are overpriced and unoriginal...I really get tired of reading throught 2 pages of statistics/feats/abilities/levels/modifiers for every encounter ( can you say page filler) sheesh sometimes an encounter with goblins is just that. Not to mention the cartoony dumbed down artwork for the average 12 year old, so it doesnt scare the mommies.



 Hip Hip Hooray!!!!! Piss on You WOTC and Paizo... now you can get back to what you were meant to do with your collective talent and profit projection analysists: Design a new series of Pokemon cards... or maybe some more goofy plastic toys for kids.. Maybe Hasbro can do a corporate buyout. You souless, gutless Toads.


Did someone forget to take their meds?  :?

My local gaming store has several boxes of back issues of recent Dragon Magazines sitting out for clearance @ 1.00$ each, they dont even sale.


You must live in one of those odd parts of the country.  The gaming store I frequent is always out of them.

Why the hell did WOTC have to buy out TSR...Sacrilage


Lets see.  One of the greatest game companies ever is losing money left and right due to all sorts of problems.  A new game company that has scads of capital after marketing one of the hottest selling games ever has the opportunity to buy it really cheap.  Kind of a no-brainer if you ask me.

3rd edition idolization, blind glorification with lockstep obediance and salacious obsession with the average 12 year olds "pokemon" allocation of allowance funds


Hmmm.  Lets say that I have an opportunity to market the greatest RPG of all time to a new generation of kids.  Do I stick with the original concept created by TSR back in the 70's or do I go with a new flashier, up-tempo version that will allow me to compete with the high-powered video games that the glassy-eyed, prepubescent, ritalin junkies seem to enjoy so much?

Greed..Greed...Greed..Greed


Yes I am sure all that greed will also cause the downfall of similar companies as Halliburton, Exxon-Mobil, and Microsoft as well.

Not to mention the cartoony dumbed down artwork for the average 12 year old, so it doesnt scare the mommies.


Seems to me like they are just going with what is most popular with kids nowadays.  The manga/anime inspired stuff is what a lot of kids are into.  And like most "mommies" nowadays even spend more than a couple of hours with their kids on any given day.

Piss on You WOTC and Paizo... now you can get back to what you were meant to do with your collective talent


Geez...if they had only hired you maybe this awful thing wouldnt be happening.  Just because all of the people at WOTC and Paizo didnt put stuff out that you liked doesnt mean that they are a bunch of no talent hacks.  And I for one don't place much blame on Paizo at all.

Regardless of how you feel about WOTC and 3rd edition D&D why the incessant babbling about it on a thread about the demise of Dungeon and Dragon magazines?  Even if their publishing contract didnt (I am assuming) specifically state that only material for 3rd edition could be published, do you honestly think that Paizo would have sold many issues if all they covered was OD&D or 1st edition AD&D?  They are a business that is trying to make money and the only way to do that is by marketing to the masses.

I dont like WOTC much.  And I dont really care for 3rd edition either.  But you seem to have enough venom stored up for just about everyone here.  If you really feel the need to post these unintelligent, immature, blithering rants (and it isnt the first time either) about how much you hate WOTC/3rd edition why dont you go do it on the WOTC boards?  That way you can spew your hate at the corporate giant that doesnt give a rats ass and we can go on discussing the demise of Dungeon and Dragon in a fairly sane manner.

By the way...your name wouldnt happen to be Jim Perleman would it.  :P

  


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Post Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2007 11:31 pm 
 

ExTSR wrote:#132: Strike Two (Wormy ends)

This turned out to be quite a turning point for a number of fans and future collectors, I suspect (although we didn't know it at the time, of course).

Personally, I've got lots of Dragons sitting around in various states of organization, but the only ones that are bagged and boarded and stored upright are numbered 132 or lower. The end of Wormy, while sad in a number of ways, does at least provide a stopping point for "old-school" Dragon collecting.

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Post Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2007 11:33 pm 
 

As far as discussing the demise of Dungeon and Dragon Magazine.. I think your several years late. I believe these two publications died in the hearts and conscious of many gamers long ago with the basterdsiation and dogshit machine of a company that inherited the titles. Yes I celebrate the loss of these noble titles and their release from the shitty hands of abuse and neglect from no talent corporate hacks. May Dragon magazine now rest in noble peace and the great quality that gamers remember as from days of past. On the bright side,  I guess you have more money availbale to spend on pokemon cards now.     . :P

  


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Post Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2007 11:40 pm 
 

Afrika Corps wrote:Yes I celebrate the loss of these noble titles and their release from the shitty hands of abuse and neglect from no talent corporate hacks.

You celebrate the end of more than 30 years of continuous publication history? You celebrate the loss of what might be the final direct link to Original D&D and first-edition AD&D?

That is a strange sentiment to find at a forum that is dedicated to old-school D&D, I'll tell you that for free. But whatever ... have a nice celebration, I guess.

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Post Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2007 11:50 pm 
 

Do you like your fillet mignon burnt to a crisp, soaked in dogshit, and half eaten served to you at the restuarant? But hey its Fillet Mignon though, so I shouldnt complain. The end of Dragon Mgazine and the end of this abomination that it has become are two seperate issues. Im sure all those advertisers will find a new venue.. and the writers can go back to doing whatever it was they were doing before...whatever that was..maybe they will be hired on to help contribute to the new super duper spectacular 4th Ed game.

  

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Post Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2007 12:05 am 
 

So much bile for something that surely has to be a tragedy.
While I agree that both mags dropped right off of my radar in the last couple of years, it can only be sad that these publications are ceasing forever.

No, I'm not a fan of 3E, and the powergaming/anime/teen/computer game style that goes with it, but unfortunately tastes and target audiences change - it wasn't for me, but perhaps it was hitting exactly the right note for thousands of others out there.

Sad days indeed


On a side note - what's your favourite Dragon article?

Mine are - 'From the City of Brass to Dead Orc pass..
and the Princess Arc series - classic stuff


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Post Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2007 12:29 am 
 

Afrika Corps wrote:Do you like your fillet mignon burnt to a crisp, soaked in dogshit, and half eaten served to you at the restuarant? But hey its Fillet Mignon though, so I shouldnt complain.


If you were starving you would eat it.  You might gag on it once or twice but you would choke it down if it was all you could get.

On the bright side, I guess you have more money availbale to spend on pokemon cards now. .


Seriously....put the bottle down now before you hurt yourself.  Save some for next time.

  

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Post Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2007 12:33 am 
 

gyg wrote:So much bile for something that surely has to be a tragedy.
While I agree that both mags dropped right off of my radar in the last couple of years, it can only be sad that these publications are ceasing forever.

No, I'm not a fan of 3E, and the powergaming/anime/teen/computer game style that goes with it, but unfortunately tastes and target audiences change - it wasn't for me, but perhaps it was hitting exactly the right note for thousands of others out there.

Sad days indeed


On a side note - what's your favourite Dragon article?

Mine are - 'From the City of Brass to Dead Orc pass..
and the Princess Arc series - classic stuff


Enjoyed Ed Greenwood's early stuff...The Nine Hells Parts 1 & 2 particularly.  Weather in Greyhawk was very useful. Bizaar of the Bizarre was very useful in the pre-internet days when new magic items were limited to what you found in the modules and ruleb ooks.  
  In another thread, I went into detail about my favorite insert.....the module contest that saw stuff like Forest of Doom, Ruins of Andril, Can Seaport be Saved?, Citadel by the Sea, etc published. I ran each of these numerous times back in the day, all were exception (IMO) and easily as good as any "profesionally" published module at the time.

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Post Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2007 12:35 am 
 

Xaxaxe, your avatar of that Dragon magazine cover - it looks like the monster could be looking at his computer screen. Either way it's cool.

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Post Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2007 1:15 am 
 

brute wrote:Xaxaxe, your avatar of that Dragon magazine cover - it looks like the monster could be looking at his computer screen. Either way it's cool.

It's got a bit of trivia, too. It's Erol Otus' one and only Dragon Magazine cover. 8O

I figured I'd whip up a quick avatar to not only show my appreciation for Dragon's heritage, but to give a shout-out to Erol, too (he's my favorite artist from Back In The Day).

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Post Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2007 8:27 am 
 

gyg wrote:
On a side note - what's your favourite Dragon article?

Mine are - 'From the City of Brass to Dead Orc pass..
and the Princess Arc series - classic stuff


Got to say the Princess Arc as well, great story, maps and information beyond the Known World. Classic.

Favorite Dungeon Adventure: Shadowbane (Ravenloft) Was the one I liked reading and really tried to find when I was first starting out collecting the mags. Now if is favorite to play in, well being DM for most of the time I only know of one my friend ran me through and that was the library one dealing with the bookbinder god I think (someone here should know :) )

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Post Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2007 9:58 am 
 

Favorite Dragon articles include:

All of the EGG Greyhawk campaign development updates in the 50 - 70-something range.  They seem a little silly now, but at the time it was really cool finding out how many infantrymen vs. cavalry the Hold of Stonefist had.

The Astral Plane article by Roger Moore in #67.

D

p.s.  I love your avatar, too, Xaxaxe!  It happens to be my PC desktop as well.  It was my first Dragon magazine purchase ever, probably mostly because of the cover art (I'm also an EO fan).  Not sure if it was the current issue at the time, and I purchased earlier issues later, but it marked the beginnings of my love of the magazine.

  


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Post Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2007 10:36 am 
 

Xaxaxe wrote:It's got a bit of trivia, too. It's Erol Otus' one and only Dragon Magazine cover. 8O

I figured I'd whip up a quick avatar to not only show my appreciation for Dragon's heritage, but to give a shout-out to Erol, too (he's my favorite artist from Back In The Day).


I'm an EO fan as well!

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Post Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2007 3:28 pm 
 

Erol Otus was the ultimate D&D artist....caught the feel of the early game perfectly.

Just as Morno was the artist for the feel of all the Arduin materials.  I wish we could convince him to revert and become Morno again.

My favorite Dragon articles were always the "NPC" classes such as the anti-paladin, the early samurai, the witch, the bandit the archer and sundry other classes...balanced and sensical or not.

Those NPC's got plugged into our games a lot as PC classes.  What they turned out to be was a series of experiments in expanding the game as a whole.

I also liked the adventures published in Dragon.

My least favorite articles were fan fiction (who cares?) and all of the space wasted on non-D&D subjects.

I remember Gary Gygax, back in 85 or so, explaining the move to 2nd edition AD&D.  

Roughly around the same time there was a readers' poll in Dragon about what we liked and did not like in the magazine.  The goal of the poll seemed to be to get us to say we liked more non-D&D artiticles.

In the section for "What other games would you like Dragon magazine to cover?" I answered:  1) AD&D  2)  AD&D  3)  AD&D.

In the section for "What would you sacrifice from Dragon magazine to make space for new subjects?" I answered:  Get rid of the Ares section and go back to covering AD&D.

Two issues later, the Ares section was gone and the editor wrote, "OK, so we understand that a lot of you want us to focus more on AD&D!"

Presto!  No more space wasted on sci-fi games and Marvel super hero crap!  (Good for toilet paper and little else to AD&D gamers.)

I was impressed that TRS and the Dragon editors had flexible minds that would allow them to adjust to buyer demands...coupled with the sense to see that the TSR spin-off games were a waste of time.

(Now, of course, someone here probably loved Star Frontiers or some such other tripe...you and about six other guys.  :wink:  )

Dragon and Dungeon were living links with the past.  Now they are gone.  Sad.

It is even more sad to me that the WOTC guys seem to believe that something different will suddenly motivate all of us to buy again.  

Since the start of 2nd Edition AD&D there has seemed to be a creative screw or two loose at TSR/WOTC...(The jump from 3.0 to 3.5 was the sort of betrayal typical of the screws-loose theory)...although sometimes the machine also spit out really good products.  

I would have preferred a less glitzy production, more oriented toward actual gaming than (for instance) articles by Will Wheaton...at maybe half the price they were charging.

But...I'm not celebrating anything.  This is a sad event.

Mark   8)


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