R.I.P.: Dragon and Dungeon magazines
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Post Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 3:15 pm 
 

Paizo is going to pull the plug on the two long-time D&D publications ... and WotC doesn't want them back:

Here's the announcement

Paizo will, apparently, now publish what amounts to a monthly 100-page 3e adventure. Or something like that. I find myself unable to care about yet another 3e adventure, seeing as there's roughly five billion of them right now.

It's the end of an era for us old-school guys. I got on board the Dragon express with issue #27, IIRC ...

So now D&D (and even gaming in general) is left with no major U.S.-based publication outside of Inquest. What a crap decision this is by everyone involved. More than 30 years of publishing history is being tossed to the curb in an effort to get yet more so-called "content" on the web and to publish more completely unneeded 3e adventures.

And, yes, I realize Erik Mona might still be stalking these forums, but I don't care. A crap decision is a crap decision.

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Post Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 3:22 pm 
 

Its a bit of a dream for collectors though.  There is now an end to the collection :)  Its sad to see the publication go out the door but I haven't read through an issue since #300.  I wonder how low sales have become on the publication.

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Post Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 3:31 pm 
 

I don't see it as a crap decision since Dragon after 250 didn't support the real Dungeons & Dragons game, but that monstrosity whose popularity is only due to name recognition.  Dragon's departure allows someone else that gives a damn about the real game to fill that void, and that's how I see it.  For example, this could be an opportunity for The Crusader to step up and fill that niche, assuming the trolls can get on a regular production schedule.  Or Inquest could create a second magazine.

As for Dragon and Dungeon, anything from issue 251 and up of the former is of little to no consequence to me (d20 crap) and I never bothered with the latter at all.  I have all the Dragon issues up to 250 in PDF, and most of them I've never read.  So I've got a lifetime's worth of reading that I can do, without needing anything new.

Oh...just to add this little tidbit.  I'd like to think they ended the magazines simply because their atrophied imaginations couldn't keep up.



  


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Post Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 3:55 pm 
 

Mars wrote:There is now an end to the collection :)

Actually, I must admit that that was one of my first reactions, too. I guess it was the collector in me thinking of all the angles, as usual. :)

Traveller wrote:For example, this could be an opportunity for The Crusader to step up and fill that niche, assuming the trolls can get on a regular production schedule.

All due respect to the people who work hard and try to put out a good magazine ... but that's just not going to happen. Dragon had 30-plus years of history, a large subscriber base, and was sold in major bookstores (and virtually every gaming store) throughout the country. The Crusader is a niche publication with limited appeal outside of its current base of support. I'm not saying that "niche" means "bad," but no smaller publication is ever going to be able to fill the void left by Dragon's departure, especially in the electronic era we live in now.

Traveller wrote:Oh...just to add this little tidbit.  I'd like to think they ended the magazines simply because their atrophied imaginations couldn't keep up.

Ouch! :) (*cough*not that I disagree*cough*)

+++++

For the record, I have not been a huge purchaser of either magazine for the past few years (3e content began in issue #274, BTW), but I did pick up about every third or fourth issue of Dragon.

It's not the 3e-heavy content of the current magazines that I will miss, it's the sense of a continuous publication history that dates back to D&D's earliest roots. The press release I linked to above is just shameful with its casual dismissal of Dragon's and Dungeon's long history and its long-winded sales pitch on just how awesomely kewl the new monthly 3e adventures will be. They will be teh r0XxZoRz, bro-brah!

I also think it's a sad day when our hobby is not supported by any notable printed publications. Inquest, with its heavy, heavy emphasis on CCGs, barely counts. Publishers can chirp all they want to about "content" going up on their web-sites, but it's not the same thing. It's not the same thing at all.

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Post Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 4:25 pm 
 

WoTC doing this online.. :? How dumb!

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Post Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 4:30 pm 
 

Online content doesn't cut it for me either.  Also, if WotC is getting rid of a income generating product to move online, I'm doubtful that the online content will be free.

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Post Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 5:00 pm 
 

but then WoTC never seem to ever do anything sensible.

i stopped reading dragon after about #160 or so, so it doesnt bother me none.

shame tho.

Al



  

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Post Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 5:43 pm 
 

I think it's a given that no one is as interested in "online" publications as they are in having an ACTUAL magazine.

I used to play lots of Games Workshop's specialist games - Mordheim, etc. - until they cancelled all the magazines for the individual games and put ONE BIG magazine ONLINE.

Yuck. The content is bad, the articles are fan-generated, and needless to say, not only did I quit reading them, I quit the GAMES.

Vote NO on online periodicals.


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Post Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 6:00 pm 
 

Center_Stage_Hobbies wrote:I think it's a given that no one is as interested in "online" publications as they are in having an ACTUAL magazine.

I couldn't agree more, but many publishers don't seem to grasp this simple concept.

And you're right, a poorly done online article just screams "whatever; we don't care; it cost us nothing to print!" There's also a hundred little details about magazine publishing that don't translate well to the interwebs.

I can't believe Dragon's fate is to end up as just another web page on just another gaming site, with the same-old same-old blinking ads and insufferable product pitches assaulting everyone's eyes. (Not to mention the fact that WotC's site is God-awful and pretty much always has been).

*Sniff* All of a sudden I'm feeling very Dragon-nostalgic. I think I'm going to go hug some of my early issues now ... :)

+++++

My favorite line from the press release: "Both companies [Paizo and WotC] remain on good terms and continue to discuss future opportunities for publishing partnerships."

Wow, what a RELIEF! Truly, most everyone I know that's ever played D&D was really worried about those two companies' relationship.

I feel bile rising ... must go vomit. Back later.  :wink:

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Post Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 6:06 pm 
 

Xaxaxe wrote:My favorite line from the press release: "Both companies [Paizo and WotC] remain on good terms and continue to discuss future opportunities for publishing partnerships."


I liked the part in the FAQ that asked if it means that Paizo would have to lay off staff.  The good news is that they don't and have actually hired 3 new staff.  That was my first concern too.

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Post Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 6:06 pm 
 

Selected quotes from their press release:


"Dragon and Dungeon have been the backbone of Paizo Publishing for five years since we spun off from Wizards of the Coast's periodicals department in 2002"
Translation: That's about as far back as roleplaying history goes folks.  No need to go back any further - those were the dark ages, no kewl characters, no super-powers and feats, just dull dull roleplaying.


"Pathfinder will debut in August at hobby retail stores, bookstores, and here on paizo.com, and—though it's a book, not a magazine—we'll be offering a subscription service for gamers..."
Translation: not buying the Dragon?  Well, why not buy this other thing you have never heard of instead.  It will be really great.  Honest.


"..the discontinuation of Dragon and Dungeon will leave many of our valued subscribers with excess subscription credit. Paizo has set up a special Transition Page that offers multiple options ..."
Translation: Pleeeease don't ask for your money back.  Buy our new thingy instead.  


"If you're concerned about the future of Paizo..."
Actually, not really, no.


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Post Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 6:07 pm 
 

looks like we were mostly thinking the same thing  :D


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Post Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 6:11 pm 
 

Wow 2 posts with the same time stamp - I wonder how often that happens.

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Post Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 6:20 pm 
 

I can't believe Dragon and Dungeon, two direct links to gaming's roots, are giving up their lives for ... this.

http://paizo.com/pathfinder

I could live to be 1,000 years old and I'd still never subscribe to what looks like a Dungeon Of The Month Club. And check out that price point, too: $20! 8O  :roll:  :lol:  :?  8O

But I'm sure all of the adventures will have phat lewt, kewl tats, and l33t bossez. What a freaking cartoon 3e can be sometimes ...

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Post Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 6:23 pm 
 

Center_Stage_Hobbies - Yuck. The content is bad, the articles are fan-generated, and needless to say, not only did I quit reading them, I quit the GAMES.

yes. and they don't seem to know that even some people not buying the magazines still play and are reassured by continuity. continuity is nothing online except for a small clique and outlying 'customers' become more fickle and likely to leave totally.

  

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Post Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 6:25 pm 
 

- I could live to be 1,000 years old and I'd still never subscribe to what looks like a Dungeon Of The Month Club. And check out that price point, too: $20! 8O  :roll:  :lol:  :?  8O

no money from you in that case? :o

wait for wizards to get the last backstab with updated - and COMPLETE!! - Dragon magazine archive at 100 bucks a pop

:cry: :cry:

  

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Post Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 7:08 pm 
 

That would probably be a good idea for them to do a complete Dungeon compilation and a complete Dragon archive too.

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Post Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 7:35 pm 
 

Maybe it is now time to start a new magazine in the style of very early Dragons or Dungeons published quarterly by The Acaeum! There are enough of us old schoolers here. Perhaps we can compile and publish some of our old creations.  :)

  


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Post Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 9:32 pm 
 

While I do enjoy playing 3e, this is indeed a dark day.

I felt i just got kicked in the teeth and F****d up the @$$ by something vaguely Chthuluistic. (pardon my spelling)

Friggin WOTC. I know it's not Paizo's fault.

Who here had the Battle Plans and Orders of Occupation for the corporate offices?


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Post Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 9:39 pm 
 

HermitFromPluto wrote:Maybe it is now time to start a new magazine in the style of very early Dragons or Dungeons published quarterly by The Acaeum! There are enough of us old schoolers here. Perhaps we can compile and publish some of our old creations.  :)


Dragonsfoot has a pretty good e-zine...Footprints.  Pretty good stuff, more often than not very useful.

I'm pretty philosophical about the end of an era. My first "off the shelf" issue was #36, I soon subscribed and bought every possible back issue I could...which in those days was only back to issue #21.  Dragon magazines from issues 30 through about 100 were treasures...almost every issue had an exceptional adventure, almost every issue had at least one article that you could begin using immediately....a lot of the charts, rules and innovations became permanent parts of our campaigns.  

Ironically, I think some of the better issues of Dragon (after a long dry spell) were the issues just before 3rd edition, say about #240-#273.  I remember getting the same feeling from a lot of those issues I had for the early ones, except once they started running the 3rd edition previews you knew it was all going to end. So really, Dragon has been pretty much dead to me for several years (since #274); it won't be missed.
  I think Dungeon still served a purpose. I don't play 3rd edition, but a lot of the stuff could be chucked and the maps or plotline kept to make your own adventure. I enjoyed the nostalgic stiff like the Isle of Dread and Kuntz stuff redos.  Just give me a nice looking map and a plotline, I'll write the rest anyway. To some Dungeon died at #82;  Still, we will always have issus #1-#81 for reference, a gigantic amount of adventures so incredible that using just these would take forever...something like 300 or so scenarios?  Most of them quite well written too.  No problems as I have all the issues, and can always run these adventures when I wish and still have plenty more left over.  
    I may be going out on a limb, but the new publication has "complete failure" written all over it.  I would be surprised if it survives the first adventure path, but I'm sure even losing money they'll give ita couple of years.  The great thing about Dungeon mag was the 3-4 scenarios for five bucks or so; I don't see how they are going to get $20 for a partial adventure when there are other companies like Goodman games releasing 3rd edition stuff in a much more nostalgic and complete format, for under $20 a pop.

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