Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk!
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Post Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 11:27 pm 
 

Blackmoor wrote:
I collect it all, 1st ed, 2nd ed, 3.??  There is ,lots of good about every edition IMHO :D


As a non player (for now-sigh!) I'm not really that bothered. I got back into this stuff when 3E was released and on a whim brought the 3 3E core rulebooks. Those books are long gone as I was not really impressed with the whole skills/feats/powergaming thing, yet my love for roleplaying stuff in general is growing all the time.

So as a reader. of RPGs it's the quality of the writing that counts - and as I like FR stuff then IMO WOTC are doing okay. The back story and writing in some of the hardbacks is very good indeed, though that may be because a lot of the contributors are very well established FR people.

Remember - most anything that get's people interested in this stuff has got to be a good thing for the industry, and by default, for gamers in general.


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Post Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 11:29 pm 
 

Goodman's Dungeon Crawl Classics are 3.0 and 3.5 edition.

I doubt most here would describe their products as crap.

From reading WOTC's own website, they are aware that many gamers considered TSR's Castle Greyhawk to be a deliberate attempt to discredit and ridicule Gary Gygax.  I doubt that Eric Mona is working on it in order to help them make that mistake over again.

Also, I think that everyone here is probably aware of this, but vitually every product put out by any publisher is an attempt to "cash in" on something.  Cashing in is the whole point of business.  The only difference between money grabs is that some of them are smart business and some of them are bad business decisions.


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Post Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 11:39 pm 
 

FormCritic wrote:Goodman's Dungeon Crawl Classics are 3.0 and 3.5 edition.

I doubt most here would describe their products as crap.


To be honest, I don't think that are really all that great.  I really do like the old school artwork and artists that they employ, but the few DCC's that I have read through weren't all that inspiring to me.  Less than impressive IMO. :)


FormCritic wrote:Also, I think that everyone here is probably aware of this, but vitually every product put out by any publisher is an attempt to "cash in" on something.  Cashing in is the whole point of business.  The only difference between money grabs is that some of them are smart business and some of them are bad business decisions.


It would be foolish to argue with this, as you are absolutely 100% correct. :)   That said though, like with anything else(gaming or not) when you start traipsing around on people sacred grounds from the past, you can't really be surprised when you get both some hard core complaining and some heavy backlash as well from those people who's grounds that you are desecrating. :wink:


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Post Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 1:23 pm 
 

The core of the issue is not the concept of 3E. That is fine. It is the fact that they try to pass it off as the "evolution" of D&D that irritates me.


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Post Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 4:12 pm 
 

MrFilthyIke wrote:
Ah, poor KingofPain89, you fail to see among these boards, like at Dragonsfoot, if it's not Scottish...I mean 1E, it's automatically crap.

Arguing anything other that praise on 1e on 1e/grognard boards is like debating the benefits of Western civilization to an Islamic Fundamentalist.

It will only end in flames/tears/bitching/etc.


Yeah that's nice dude.  Hey, they don't like 3e so they're a bunch of suicide bombers and taliban.

Congratulations, rocket scientist, I think you just invented a new corallary to Godwin's Law.

  


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Post Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 5:03 pm 
 

DungeonDelver wrote:Yeah that's nice dude.  Hey, they don't like 3e so they're a bunch of suicide bombers and taliban.

Pretty sure he was using a simile there.  ;)

His point, which was a good one for those that missed it, is that going to a 1E site and suggesting either "3E is great" or "1E is not great" is rather futile.  And that's obviously correct.  Whether or not the Acaeum is in fact a "1E site" is a matter for debate, I suppose.

(Incidentally, there is an enormous difference between suicide bombers and/or members of the Taliban, and "Islamic Fundamentalists".  You seem to be leaping to a quite the conclusion there.  Stick that one up your Godwin.)

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Post Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 5:25 pm 
 

Sigh.  (Long, but I feel like playing peacekeeper and devil's advocate a bit)

The reasons why AD&D vets are going to be sour on this product are many.  TSR had their overthrow, they kicked Gary out, Greyhawk basically died.  Castle Greyhawk pounded the nails in the coffin, so deeply that WGR1 could never effectively pry them out.  WotC bought out TSR, the company they had accidentally killed, and even rezzed Greyhawk for a short while.

The "silver return" adventures are the high mark of this era.  Yes, they were paying appreciative tribute to Greyhawk.  But what they were really doing, was cashing in on the poll results, where players (including me) had voted for the 5 best adventures of all time.  Those adventures coincidentally happened to be set mostly in Greyhawk.

This attitude, of pleasing the majority, became more prevalent when testing of 3E prototypes made the rounds.  It quickly became clear to me that I was in the minority now, that the new generation favored quick games, fewer sessions, more focus on miniatures and character options, and a more visceral and visual feel (perhaps brought on by videogames, which I also love).  As a by-product of this shift, the power moved away from the DMs of the world (who weren't buying enough stuff anyway) and into the hands of the players.  After all, in any RPG, the players form the pure-percentage majority over the DMs.  Catering to power-gamers is wise and good business.  WotC already had their own AD&D-inspired power-over-fluff product, Magic:  The Gathering, providing them with a firm grasp of what players in the newly-defined demographic really wanted.

So when 3E came out, the majority were pleased, and the vets found themselves left in the cold.  Why?  Not enough of them.  Too many had bailed after the 2E balkanization or the 3E test gaming.  Their voices didn't count, they were drowned out.  So a schism was formed between the vets and the 3E advocates.

This was by no means new.  When I first started buying D&D with my allowance and mowing money in 1979, I would go past the grumbling grognards, and the "real" whitebox players.  A few whiteboxers would be sneered at by the supplement-clutchers.  I didn't understand what was going on -- adults can be cantankerous about the littlest things -- but it did bring some grins later on when I figured it out.  No matter.  I'd take my 1E and Moldvays and latest Dragon home and have a blast.

1985 came, Gary got kicked out.  1E+ and 2E were OK, but it was clear that the refined play mechanics had killed the eccentric pulp flavor that comprised the game's soul.  So there was a 2E vs. 1E war, on top of the 1E vs. whiteboxers vs. supplement-clutchers vs. grognards.  Then 3E vs. most everyone, and now even 3.5E vs. a fringe of 3E retainers.  This will keep going on, because much like music, the D&D you experienced first, that gave you that unforgettable rush, is the "perfect" edition.  It's not the mechanics you're hooking into for life, it's the spirit, the friendships of the time and the memories.

Nowadays, most 1E players either ignore WotC products and keep playing, or stop and collect, or go to Castles & Crusades, or abandon the hobby altogether.  And most of them are quite aware that the ever-lost Holy Grail of the 1E golden age -- Castle Greyhawk -- is finally appearing, with excruciating slowness, in the legally-restrained Castle Zagyg.  Not the best of possibilities, but definitely intriguing.

And WotC knows that too.  The strong feeling is that WotC is positioning Expedition to Castle Greyhawk specifically to compete against (and kill, due to distribution) Castle Zagyg, and by inference C&C.

That's not a nice thing to do.

I'm familiar with the people working on WotC's products, they're nice and competent enough, and they're likely doing as they're told / invited to do.  Which is fine.  But the end result is really sucky and rather cruel, intentionally or not.  So even if Expedition proves to have some quality, it's not the "real" castle, it's just the next WGR1, capitalizing on name recognition.  There will likely be some quality ideas in it, and I'll probably sneak a few of the best ones into my stuff when that tome inevitably passes through my (second) hands.  But when I do so, I'll be thinking of everyone else's reaction in the distance.

I'm not sure why I'm defining this particular position of angst on both sides here, in this particular fashion -- it's likely that I'm just tired of 28 years of the edition wars.  Too many people are now playing the meta-game of the Real World where the D&D products appear.  They're collecting, buying, selling, warring with others who don't have their same perfect edition memories, building characters instead of envisioning them, leveling to 20 in 6 months, leveling to 5 in 2 years, advocating some edition tribes while committing genocide on others, whatever.  All that's fine, it's a classic case of blowing off steam in the true hobbyist fashion.

But ever since 2004 or so, it's gotten way, way out of proportion.  Too many people are now focusing on the meta-sniping, and too few are focusing on the fun and spirit of the game.  That's why a lot of quality people don't visit this site any longer, or many of the others, because no matter who you are and what game you believe in, the wars take the fun out of everything.

I'm not going to tell everyone to just make peace with one another.  I, personally, strongly advocate pre-1986 D&D to the exclusion of newer additions, so I'm not one to point fingers.  But I am going to say that is the real problem here, throughout the entire hobby:

The meta-angst is not balanced by the genuine love of the game.

  

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Post Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 5:26 pm 
 

The Acaeum is a collectors site!!  We talk about all sorts of related gaming stuff with regards to D&D.  It is not a 1st ed site.  If it was we would never talk about woodies, DCC, Judges guild, planescpe........

That is why I started this thread!  To make collectors aware of this new release! :D


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Post Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 5:43 pm 
 

Blackmoor wrote:The Acaeum is a collectors site!!  We talk about all sorts of related gaming stuff with regards to D&D.  It is not a 1st ed site.  If it was we would never talk about woodies, DCC, Judges guild, planescpe........

That is why I started this thread!  To make collectors aware of this new release! :D


The Acaeum is first off and foremost a collectors site, however it deeply rooted for the most part on 1st edition material. :)


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Last edited by bclarkie on Tue Feb 27, 2007 5:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
  

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Post Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 5:53 pm 
 

in all fairness tho, quite a few rares arent 1E

Al



  


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Post Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 5:54 pm 
 

killjoy32 wrote:in all fairness tho, quite a few rares arent 1E

Al



Such as?  :)


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Post Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 5:56 pm 
 

og sod off BC i am too tired man.

you know its true so behave :)

Al



  

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Post Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 6:02 pm 
 

just a few:

chainmail, character archaic, various character sheets, dwarven glory, PotVQ, most wee warriors stuff, all the OD&D sets, woodgrains

i'd say that makes a fair argument :D

Al



  

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Post Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 6:04 pm 
 

Actually a lot of 1E products are not rares, its 0D&D that has the majority

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Post Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 6:06 pm 
 

I belabor you all about the head with your own schismatic quibbles.

Save vs. Death Ray or take 1 hp of damage!

8)

  


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Post Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 6:08 pm 
 

killjoy32 wrote:just a few:

chainmail, character archaic, various character sheets, dwarven glory, PotVQ, most wee warriors stuff, all the OD&D sets, woodgrains

i'd say that makes a fair argument :D

Al


Truthfully, I (I figure many others feel this way as well :) ) consider all of that material 1st edition.  I don't think 1st edition is exclusive to AD&D.  :wink:  Just like when talking about 2nd & 3rd edition we don't typically break up thoseeditions into 2.5 and 3.5 editions respectively, I believe the same holds true for 1st edition. :)


"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." -Neitzche


Last edited by bclarkie on Tue Feb 27, 2007 6:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
  

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Post Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 6:08 pm 
 

darkseraphim wrote:I belabor you all about the head with your own schismatic quibbles.

Save vs. Death Ray or take 1 hp of damage!

8)


Is that a Will or Fort save. :wink:

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Post Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 6:08 pm 
 

darkseraphim wrote:I belabor you all about the head with your own schismatic quibbles.

Save vs. Death Ray or take 1 hp of damage!

8)

Hey, that tickles!  Great post, by the way.

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