Aneoth wrote:
I am not going to leave feedback until I know the items arrived safely. Why do the sellers wait? Do they think with my record I am going to flame them for no good reason? .

In a word, Aneoth, yes.  I no longer leave feedback first for this very reason.  Feedback from the buyer tells me that he has received the item and is satisfied with the item.  If he has a problem, I like for him to contact me first and let me know so we can work it out.  Otherwise, feedback extortion happens where you get the inevitable "If you don't give me back my money, I'm leaving you a neg" crap when you have already left feedback first.
  Recently I got a neg from a buyer who paid with check, I sent him the item, I left positive feedback, check bounced.  I filed a NPB report, the buyer went apeshit insane and left me a neg, then started threatening me via email.  The buyer was kicked off ebay due to this incident.  The downside is that he was able to ding my feedback without me having retaliation about what a nut this guy was.  I also think that had I not sent a quick positive the entire incident would never have happened, since the buyer at the time had 100% feedback and I feel would not have risked it over the chance I might have left him a neg.
  I have over 7k feedback now, and could care less if I ever get any feedback again.  I don't badger or cajole buyers into leaving feedback, but neither will I ever leave it again until I received feedback first, and I make zero apologies about it.  If you want positive feedback, leave it first, end of story.  There is no right or wrong procedure; most Aceaum members have their own procedure.  I personally leave feedback as soon as I get the item and it is as described, but that's just me.
 Plus, I would dispute "A"...buyers have other obligations than to just send money in a timely manner.  Case in point:  I recently sent a large package to a buyer in the UK.  He contacted me several weeks later and told me he had never received the package.  I used the customs number to trace the package to his local post office, which was holding the package and had been for almost two weeks.  I told him and he went to pick up the package. Now, didn't the buyer have some sort of obligation to at least check and seeing if the package was being held for him before contacting me?  In this case it was very civil, but I have had emails that threatened to sue me, to ruin my good name, to report me to ebay, paypal, the police, god above, etc, and in the end it turns out whoops, the post office was holding me package, oops, sorry about leaving you that neg, I never checked. So, no, the buyer has the obligation to make sure he has not ACTUALLY RECEIVED THE PACKAGE FIRST before threatening me.  
 I used to leave feedback as soon as I got payment. The dozens, and yes I do mean dozens, of threatening emails I got from buyers each month who didn't receive their items in two days and thus "were going to leave me a neg if the item didn't arrive TODAY" has stopped entirely!  Frankly, it's worth it to appear a little rude in exchange for losing this daily barrage of hateful crap.  I find the system runs much, much smoother, everyone gets their postive feedback from a very flawed system, people are much less likely to leave negs or complain about issues that are out of my control (aka the postal system), and everyone is much happier in the end.  
    Aneoth, don't worry about the feedback. In the scheme of ebay, it's not worth it.  You are focusing on a ultimately non-essential issue that has nothing to do with your enjoyment of the item you received.  If you are happy with the purchase, there is not need for you to chew on such a small bone. Look at my feedback. I have 7000 positives, yet have over 11,000 sales.  Not all of those are multiple buyers. So conservatively, probably 3000 THATS THREE THOUSAND buyers have not left me feedback.  If I stopped to worry over each of those snubs, I would go nuts.....

Mike B.

Aneoth wrote:It seems like the sellers are waiting for me to feed them first. It aint gonna happen.
WHY?

1) As a buyer your ONLY obligation is to send the money in a timely manner. Oh yeah........... communication too   Thats it............

2) As a seller your obligations are much more complicated;
A) Honesty in condition
B) Honesty in shipping costs (Dont change it from what the listing states, after the auction is over)
C) Shipping the item(s) in a timely manner once payment is recieved
D) Shipping the item safely (Nothing chaps me more than spending big bucks on a rare D&D item (Such as an RPGA module) only to have the seller ship it in an uprotected 9" by 12" envelop for the mail person to bend in half to stuff it into the tiny mailbox)
E) Oh yeah........... communication too
 
I am not going to leave feedback until I know the items arrived safely. Why do the sellers wait? Do they think with my record I am going to flame them for no good reason? If so, then they must be worried about one of the choices above under Item 2). Perhaps it is for good reason that they wait for it.

My granny often told me that if you cant say something nice, then dont say anything.

Since I dont sell on Ebay I dont have the point-of-view that other people that do sell may have.  But with all of the discussions that have been going on here over the years about feedback issues I think that a lot of sellers have gotten to the point that they will not leave feedback unless they receive it first simply to prevent some jerk from leaving them negative feedback without first communicating any problems to them.

A lot of sellers have gotten into the habit of putting in their auction descriptions for the buyer to leave them positive feedback once they receive the item to communicate to them that they are pleased with the transaction and once that is done they will leave positive feedback in return.  I dont have a problem with that at all and actually makes the whole process a lot simpler IMO.

I think the majority of people here have a serious problem with the Ebay feedback system in general but right now...it is what it is.  You can decide to withhold feedback from your sellers until they leave feedback for you first but I have a feeling that you are going to find that choosing to do so will probably cause you more problems in the long run.

killjoy32 wrote:hey mike, its funny you should mention that post office thing.

i sent a parcel to someone once a fair while back. after two weeks and four e-mails later, the woman got really pissed at me because the item had not got there. i had sent it recorded delivery!!

anyway, once the period had elapsed so you can declare an item lost, i filled out the forms and made a claim to the post office for the parcel that had clearly gone missing.

i had a friend who worked in the post office, so had him check into the matter for me. he got in touch with her local sorting office and lo and behold...their records showed that they tried to deliver it TWICE (even had the times written) and left notes for her TWICE too....she didnt come and collect the item, so after 14 days or whatever their period was ( i cant remember now), they returned it to sender (me).

in the meantime, the post office sent me a claimed payment for the lost stuff and out of that, i refunded her payment and also told her about the above details...her reply? "oh right ummm was that what them notifications were for?" !!!!  

anyway i had a small amount left from the claim but it wasnt enough to cover my loss of items, but in the end, it got her out of my way - damn awkward woman to deal with ("i dont have this problem when i go into clothes shops" !!!! couldnt believe she said that to me)

anyway about three days later, my parcel turned up back at my house!!!

so i sold it on ebay again and it went for more than last time    so it all worked out.

Al

Al;

More than one shipment to the UK the buyer told me he eventually found the item at his local post office, and that they never left a notice for them.  I guess this could just be forgetful buyers covering their ass, but it happens far too often to be coincidence.  In the latest case the buyer grumbled to me in email "That lot up (at the post office) there must think I'm psychic!!!".  So does the Uk postal service really forget to leave notices, or is it all rubbish???

Mike B.

Kamelion wrote:In my experience the postal service here in the UK is very good.  Not only do they leave notes if you are out, but they also leave notes if they leave the item at a neighbours for you (which sometimes happens).  Furthermore, you don't even need to go to the post office to collect packages that you missed.  All Royal Mail delivery notes have a phone number that you can call and arrange for delivery at your convenience. In short, these kinds of excuses are bullshit of the finest pedigree.  And we have some very fine pedigree over here...

I have heard some not so nice things about the UK postal service's handling of packages.  

It could well be a local thing.  Our local postman is great and knows that I get packages from all over the place on a regular basis.  So he is very conscientous.  Maybe I'm just lucky

I did have an experience like Killjoy32 mentions, but with a UPS courier.  I phoned his depot and raised some hell (as the item in question was a $3000 dollar custom bass guitar I had shipped back to the manufacturer in California for repair).  It arrived again the next day without a hitch.

As a frequent buyer & seller, I strongly believe that the buyer should leave feedback first.  A buyer has 2 responsibilities: To pay within a reasonable amount of time, and to calmly discuss any problems with the product.  A seller has no idea a buyer will fulfill the second half of their responsibilities when the buyer pays.

1) Seller lists auction with clear and accurate description.
2) Buyer wins and pays in a reasonable time.
3) Seller packages carefully, ships promptly, and doesn't overcharge for shipping
4) Buyer receives package and calmly discusses any problems with the Seller
5) Seller fixes any problems (i.e. partial/full refund or replacement)
6) Satisfied Buyer leaves feedback
7) Satisfied Seller leaves feedback

IMHO, that is the way it should work.

bclarkie wrote:
To play devil's advocate though, you are assuming that the seller is being honest in his description and is doing all the things that a seller should do.  What if the seller is an ass hat who lies in his descripitions, extremely overcharges for shipping and ships everything in a plain manilla envelope with no protection.  Then, when the buyer complains about it, the seller tells him to go sh*t in his hat and he is not doing anything about it and if the buyer leaves the seller a neg then the buyer can expect a neg in return.  Is that any more fair then the buyer extorting feedback from the seller?  I mean, Cougar pretty makes a full time living off of my what if situation.

Hey, I said that's how I thought it SHOULD work.

I think a big reason those kinds of sellers are able to operate like that is because too many people are afraid to leave negative feedback.  If everyone left negative feedback every time it was warranted, those sellers wouldn't be able to victimize as many people.

personally, i think there needs to be another step in the process.

feedback doesnt get recorded on either account, until it has been entered by both parties and validated as good and proper.

again, this will have drawbacks, but i think its much better than what we have currently.

Al

Beyondthebreach wrote:.........If you wait for the buyer, then you are essentially saying - "I will get back at you with a retalitory neg if you say a negative thing about me!"  

Exactly.........

Good and honest sellers have NOTHING to worry about from me, nor most of the other buyers on E-Bay either.

Describe it honestly and send it well packed in a timely manner and you will get a good feedback from me. Otherwise the flames will burn you......