Feedback When to leave it or not to leave it
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Post Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 9:48 am 
 

As a buyer (At least in the past) I have always been used to getting feedback when my money is sent. When the item arrives (If it does) in the mail then I leave feedback according to condition as stated in the listing description. Of course that was two years ago when I was one of the most active buyers of D&D items around.

I almost always pay within moments of end of auction, since I have always been active in my vigilance of watching my bid items. And so I usually know if I win or not quite soon after the auction ends and if the option is available pay immediately using Paypal if I know the total costs including S&H.

Recently I returned to viewing E-Bay and I purchased about a dozen items from E-Bay in the past couple of months and for 8 of those items no feedback was left for me.  :? And one of those sellers has sent me an e-mail asking for feedback.  8O

It seems like the sellers are waiting for me to feed them first. It aint gonna happen.
WHY?

1) As a buyer your ONLY obligation is to send the money in a timely manner. Oh yeah........... communication too   Thats it............

2) As a seller your obligations are much more complicated;
A) Honesty in condition
B) Honesty in shipping costs (Dont change it from what the listing states, after the auction is over)
C) Shipping the item(s) in a timely manner once payment is recieved
D) Shipping the item safely (Nothing chaps me more than spending big bucks on a rare D&D item (Such as an RPGA module) only to have the seller ship it in an uprotected 9" by 12" envelop for the mail person to bend in half to stuff it into the tiny mailbox)
E) Oh yeah........... communication too
 
I am not going to leave feedback until I know the items arrived safely. Why do the sellers wait? Do they think with my record I am going to flame them for no good reason? If so, then they must be worried about one of the choices above under Item 2). Perhaps it is for good reason that they wait for it.

My granny often told me that if you cant say something nice, then dont say anything.


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Post Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 10:15 am 
 

Aneoth wrote:
I am not going to leave feedback until I know the items arrived safely. Why do the sellers wait? Do they think with my record I am going to flame them for no good reason? .


In a word, Aneoth, yes.  I no longer leave feedback first for this very reason.  Feedback from the buyer tells me that he has received the item and is satisfied with the item.  If he has a problem, I like for him to contact me first and let me know so we can work it out.  Otherwise, feedback extortion happens where you get the inevitable "If you don't give me back my money, I'm leaving you a neg" crap when you have already left feedback first.
  Recently I got a neg from a buyer who paid with check, I sent him the item, I left positive feedback, check bounced.  I filed a NPB report, the buyer went apeshit insane and left me a neg, then started threatening me via email.  The buyer was kicked off ebay due to this incident.  The downside is that he was able to ding my feedback without me having retaliation about what a nut this guy was.  I also think that had I not sent a quick positive the entire incident would never have happened, since the buyer at the time had 100% feedback and I feel would not have risked it over the chance I might have left him a neg.
  I have over 7k feedback now, and could care less if I ever get any feedback again.  I don't badger or cajole buyers into leaving feedback, but neither will I ever leave it again until I received feedback first, and I make zero apologies about it.  If you want positive feedback, leave it first, end of story.  There is no right or wrong procedure; most Aceaum members have their own procedure.  I personally leave feedback as soon as I get the item and it is as described, but that's just me.
 Plus, I would dispute "A"...buyers have other obligations than to just send money in a timely manner.  Case in point:  I recently sent a large package to a buyer in the UK.  He contacted me several weeks later and told me he had never received the package.  I used the customs number to trace the package to his local post office, which was holding the package and had been for almost two weeks.  I told him and he went to pick up the package. Now, didn't the buyer have some sort of obligation to at least check and seeing if the package was being held for him before contacting me?  In this case it was very civil, but I have had emails that threatened to sue me, to ruin my good name, to report me to ebay, paypal, the police, god above, etc, and in the end it turns out whoops, the post office was holding me package, oops, sorry about leaving you that neg, I never checked. So, no, the buyer has the obligation to make sure he has not ACTUALLY RECEIVED THE PACKAGE FIRST before threatening me.  
 I used to leave feedback as soon as I got payment. The dozens, and yes I do mean dozens, of threatening emails I got from buyers each month who didn't receive their items in two days and thus "were going to leave me a neg if the item didn't arrive TODAY" has stopped entirely!  Frankly, it's worth it to appear a little rude in exchange for losing this daily barrage of hateful crap.  I find the system runs much, much smoother, everyone gets their postive feedback from a very flawed system, people are much less likely to leave negs or complain about issues that are out of my control (aka the postal system), and everyone is much happier in the end.  
    Aneoth, don't worry about the feedback. In the scheme of ebay, it's not worth it.  You are focusing on a ultimately non-essential issue that has nothing to do with your enjoyment of the item you received.  If you are happy with the purchase, there is not need for you to chew on such a small bone. Look at my feedback. I have 7000 positives, yet have over 11,000 sales.  Not all of those are multiple buyers. So conservatively, probably 3000 THATS THREE THOUSAND buyers have not left me feedback.  If I stopped to worry over each of those snubs, I would go nuts..... :D

Mike B.


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Post Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 10:38 am 
 

Well, in theory and in a perfect world, the seller should leave feedback first and up until about a year or so ago, I always left feedback first as the seller.  That said, in conjunction with both my ever increasing popularity amongst the shady dealers of Ebay and the fact that I have seen far, far too many instances just like the one Mike described, I have now changed my policy of leaving feeback first.  

The thing that dramatically changed my thinking on the process happened to me last year when one of our old friends, Keepontheborderlands had one of his friends buy things from both myself and Killjoy with the express and sole purpose of leaving us both negs.  Granted Ebay was able to fix that mess(I was able to prove to them via a USPS tracking number that the buyer intentionally gave me a false address so that he could leave me a neg) by removing the intentional negative feedback, but none the less instances like that and the one Mike describes has now firmly put me in the wait and see mode for leaving feedback.


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Post Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 10:42 am 
 

Aneoth wrote:It seems like the sellers are waiting for me to feed them first. It aint gonna happen.
WHY?

1) As a buyer your ONLY obligation is to send the money in a timely manner. Oh yeah........... communication too   Thats it............

2) As a seller your obligations are much more complicated;
A) Honesty in condition
B) Honesty in shipping costs (Dont change it from what the listing states, after the auction is over)
C) Shipping the item(s) in a timely manner once payment is recieved
D) Shipping the item safely (Nothing chaps me more than spending big bucks on a rare D&D item (Such as an RPGA module) only to have the seller ship it in an uprotected 9" by 12" envelop for the mail person to bend in half to stuff it into the tiny mailbox)
E) Oh yeah........... communication too
 
I am not going to leave feedback until I know the items arrived safely. Why do the sellers wait? Do they think with my record I am going to flame them for no good reason? If so, then they must be worried about one of the choices above under Item 2). Perhaps it is for good reason that they wait for it.

My granny often told me that if you cant say something nice, then dont say anything.


Since I dont sell on Ebay I dont have the point-of-view that other people that do sell may have.  But with all of the discussions that have been going on here over the years about feedback issues I think that a lot of sellers have gotten to the point that they will not leave feedback unless they receive it first simply to prevent some jerk from leaving them negative feedback without first communicating any problems to them.

A lot of sellers have gotten into the habit of putting in their auction descriptions for the buyer to leave them positive feedback once they receive the item to communicate to them that they are pleased with the transaction and once that is done they will leave positive feedback in return.  I dont have a problem with that at all and actually makes the whole process a lot simpler IMO.

I think the majority of people here have a serious problem with the Ebay feedback system in general but right now...it is what it is.  You can decide to withhold feedback from your sellers until they leave feedback for you first but I have a feeling that you are going to find that choosing to do so will probably cause you more problems in the long run.

  

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Post Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 10:47 am 
 

hey mike, its funny you should mention that post office thing.

i sent a parcel to someone once a fair while back. after two weeks and four e-mails later, the woman got really pissed at me because the item had not got there. i had sent it recorded delivery!!

anyway, once the period had elapsed so you can declare an item lost, i filled out the forms and made a claim to the post office for the parcel that had clearly gone missing.

i had a friend who worked in the post office, so had him check into the matter for me. he got in touch with her local sorting office and lo and behold...their records showed that they tried to deliver it TWICE (even had the times written) and left notes for her TWICE too....she didnt come and collect the item, so after 14 days or whatever their period was ( i cant remember now), they returned it to sender (me).

in the meantime, the post office sent me a claimed payment for the lost stuff and out of that, i refunded her payment and also told her about the above details...her reply? "oh right ummm was that what them notifications were for?" !!!!  8O

anyway i had a small amount left from the claim but it wasnt enough to cover my loss of items, but in the end, it got her out of my way - damn awkward woman to deal with ("i dont have this problem when i go into clothes shops" !!!! couldnt believe she said that to me)

anyway about three days later, my parcel turned up back at my house!!!

so i sold it on ebay again and it went for more than last time  :P  so it all worked out.

cest la vie...

***********************************************************

i had another the other day. a guy in the US won one of my items and paid by echeque - which takes about 4-5 days to clear. once the payment had cleared, i sent the item to him airmail (takes 5-10 days?). i got a msg yesterday, stating he hadnt had the book yet, was there a problem blah blah blah....i replied cordially, explaining about the echeque and to just be patient.

i got an e-mail from him early this morning, stating that it turned up in the mail yesterday and all was good!

he had a feedback of 1, so it could quite easily have gone bad at any point there - thankfully he was good to deal with and everything was ok in the end...

shows how something can quite easily go bad though.

Al



  

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Post Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 10:59 am 
 

killjoy32 wrote:hey mike, its funny you should mention that post office thing.

i sent a parcel to someone once a fair while back. after two weeks and four e-mails later, the woman got really pissed at me because the item had not got there. i had sent it recorded delivery!!

anyway, once the period had elapsed so you can declare an item lost, i filled out the forms and made a claim to the post office for the parcel that had clearly gone missing.

i had a friend who worked in the post office, so had him check into the matter for me. he got in touch with her local sorting office and lo and behold...their records showed that they tried to deliver it TWICE (even had the times written) and left notes for her TWICE too....she didnt come and collect the item, so after 14 days or whatever their period was ( i cant remember now), they returned it to sender (me).

in the meantime, the post office sent me a claimed payment for the lost stuff and out of that, i refunded her payment and also told her about the above details...her reply? "oh right ummm was that what them notifications were for?" !!!!  8O

anyway i had a small amount left from the claim but it wasnt enough to cover my loss of items, but in the end, it got her out of my way - damn awkward woman to deal with ("i dont have this problem when i go into clothes shops" !!!! couldnt believe she said that to me)

anyway about three days later, my parcel turned up back at my house!!!

so i sold it on ebay again and it went for more than last time  :P  so it all worked out.

Al


Al;

More than one shipment to the UK the buyer told me he eventually found the item at his local post office, and that they never left a notice for them.  I guess this could just be forgetful buyers covering their ass, but it happens far too often to be coincidence.  In the latest case the buyer grumbled to me in email "That lot up (at the post office) there must think I'm psychic!!!".  So does the Uk postal service really forget to leave notices, or is it all rubbish??? :D

Mike B.


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Post Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 11:23 am 
 

In my experience the postal service here in the UK is very good.  Not only do they leave notes if you are out, but they also leave notes if they leave the item at a neighbours for you (which sometimes happens).  Furthermore, you don't even need to go to the post office to collect packages that you missed.  All Royal Mail delivery notes have a phone number that you can call and arrange for delivery at your convenience. In short, these kinds of excuses are bullshit of the finest pedigree.  And we have some very fine pedigree over here... ;)

  


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Post Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 11:26 am 
 

Kamelion wrote:In my experience the postal service here in the UK is very good.  Not only do they leave notes if you are out, but they also leave notes if they leave the item at a neighbours for you (which sometimes happens).  Furthermore, you don't even need to go to the post office to collect packages that you missed.  All Royal Mail delivery notes have a phone number that you can call and arrange for delivery at your convenience. In short, these kinds of excuses are bullshit of the finest pedigree.  And we have some very fine pedigree over here... ;)


I have heard some not so nice things about the UK postal service's handling of packages.   8O


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Post Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 11:27 am 
 

well i have to admit, quite often, they DO leave something to be desired with the quality of their service.....

instance....

now bear in mind, my house is SMALL...believe me in comparison to y'all over in the states.

when i am sat in the living room watching the tv, i am about 10-15ft from the front door. i live right at the dead end of a street, so anyone who comes up in a car, i can see directly out of the front window - so i can guage whether to avoid them or not  :P

one saturday morning, i watched a post office van pull up, guy get out, come to my door with something. something put through the letterbox (curtain in the way so i didnt know what). i got up, went to see what it was and it was a notification that i wasnt in and had to go the bloody post office to pick it up !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  8O  8O  8O

when i had opened the door to go after him, he had already zoomed off down the street and was gone!

i tell you now...was i pissed when i went the post office on the monday.... now THAT is total incompetence.

i simply couldnt believe it.

needless to say, i saw the same postman guy about 3-4 days later. and i told him that if he did that again, god help him if i got hold of him. needless to say, hes a good lad and i havent had a problem since :D

shows though how easily something can go pear-shaped.

mike: there are instances though of notices not left for ppl. but then in all fairness, if i was sat waiting for something and it went over a period where i thought "hmmm it should be here by now" - i would call up the sorting office and check...but then thats another story...getting through to them...its actually easier to win back-to-back lotteries :D

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Post Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 11:35 am 
 

It could well be a local thing.  Our local postman is great and knows that I get packages from all over the place on a regular basis.  So he is very conscientous.  Maybe I'm just lucky :D

I did have an experience like Killjoy32 mentions, but with a UPS courier.  I phoned his depot and raised some hell (as the item in question was a $3000 dollar custom bass guitar I had shipped back to the manufacturer in California for repair).  It arrived again the next day without a hitch.

  

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Post Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 12:31 pm 
 

Kamelion wrote:It could well be a local thing.  Our local postman is great and knows that I get packages from all over the place on a regular basis.  So he is very conscientous.  Maybe I'm just lucky :D

I did have an experience like Killjoy32 mentions, but with a UPS courier.  I phoned his depot and raised some hell (as the item in question was a $3000 dollar custom bass guitar I had shipped back to the manufacturer in California for repair).  It arrived again the next day without a hitch.


Well, then it sounds about like it is in the states; sometimes you get a good postman, sometimes you don't. Our local delivery men (not the post office people themselves) are so awful, we have completely stopped delivery to our house....I get everything at my PO box. I think it has a lot to do with the fact that they farm our route out to three different drivers, so we never have consistent service.

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Post Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 12:56 pm 
 

As a frequent buyer & seller, I strongly believe that the buyer should leave feedback first.  A buyer has 2 responsibilities: To pay within a reasonable amount of time, and to calmly discuss any problems with the product.  A seller has no idea a buyer will fulfill the second half of their responsibilities when the buyer pays.

1) Seller lists auction with clear and accurate description.
2) Buyer wins and pays in a reasonable time.
3) Seller packages carefully, ships promptly, and doesn't overcharge for shipping
4) Buyer receives package and calmly discusses any problems with the Seller
5) Seller fixes any problems (i.e. partial/full refund or replacement)
6) Satisfied Buyer leaves feedback
7) Satisfied Seller leaves feedback

IMHO, that is the way it should work.

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Post Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 1:03 pm 
 

Gus Landt wrote:As a frequent buyer & seller, I strongly believe that the buyer should leave feedback first.  A buyer has 2 responsibilities: To pay within a reasonable amount of time, and to calmly discuss any problems with the product.  A seller has no idea a buyer will fulfill the second half of their responsibilities when the buyer pays.

1) Seller lists auction with clear and accurate description.
2) Buyer wins and pays in a reasonable time.
3) Seller packages carefully, ships promptly, and doesn't overcharge for shipping
4) Buyer receives package and calmly discusses any problems with the Seller
5) Seller fixes any problems (i.e. partial/full refund or replacement)
6) Satisfied Buyer leaves feedback
7) Satisfied Seller leaves feedback

IMHO, that is the way it should work.


To play devil's advocate though, you are assuming that the seller is being honest in his description and is doing all the things that a seller should do.  What if the seller is an ass hat who lies in his descripitions, extremely overcharges for shipping and ships everything in a plain manilla envelope with no protection.  Then, when the buyer complains about it, the seller tells him to go sh*t in his hat and he is not doing anything about it and if the buyer leaves the seller a neg then the buyer can expect a neg in return.  Is that any more fair then the buyer extorting feedback from the seller?  I mean, Cougar pretty makes a full time living off of my what if situation.


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Post Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 1:39 pm 
 

bclarkie wrote:
To play devil's advocate though, you are assuming that the seller is being honest in his description and is doing all the things that a seller should do.  What if the seller is an ass hat who lies in his descripitions, extremely overcharges for shipping and ships everything in a plain manilla envelope with no protection.  Then, when the buyer complains about it, the seller tells him to go sh*t in his hat and he is not doing anything about it and if the buyer leaves the seller a neg then the buyer can expect a neg in return.  Is that any more fair then the buyer extorting feedback from the seller?  I mean, Cougar pretty makes a full time living off of my what if situation.

Hey, I said that's how I thought it SHOULD work. :D

I think a big reason those kinds of sellers are able to operate like that is because too many people are afraid to leave negative feedback.  If everyone left negative feedback every time it was warranted, those sellers wouldn't be able to victimize as many people.

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Post Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 1:45 pm 
 

Gus Landt wrote:As a frequent buyer & seller, I strongly believe that the buyer should leave feedback first.  A buyer has 2 responsibilities: To pay within a reasonable amount of time, and to calmly discuss any problems with the product.  A seller has no idea a buyer will fulfill the second half of their responsibilities when the buyer pays.

1) Seller lists auction with clear and accurate description.
2) Buyer wins and pays in a reasonable time.
3) Seller packages carefully, ships promptly, and doesn't overcharge for shipping
4) Buyer receives package and calmly discusses any problems with the Seller
5) Seller fixes any problems (i.e. partial/full refund or replacement)
6) Satisfied Buyer leaves feedback
7) Satisfied Seller leaves feedback

IMHO, that is the way it should work.

I agree, except to switch 6 and 7.


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Post Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 1:47 pm 
 

personally, i think there needs to be another step in the process.

feedback doesnt get recorded on either account, until it has been entered by both parties and validated as good and proper.

again, this will have drawbacks, but i think its much better than what we have currently.

Al



  

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Post Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 1:52 pm 
 

I still maintain the seller should leave feedback first!  :D

How about this scenario:

6) Disatisfied Buyer leaves negative feedback
7) Satisfied Seller leaves positive feedback


Err . . . no . . . how often will that happen?  If I went to **shudder** Wal-Mart and I was unhappy should they only be happy with me if I say good things about them?

If employees are rude to me . . . if the lines were too long . . . if the product quality is sub-standard then I should be able to say something negative without fear of Wal-mart retaliating.  (Let's assume I pay for the items and am polite to all employees).

Sellers seem to think that negative feedback is always unwarranted.  Stand by your reputations!   If you wait for the buyer, then you are essentially saying - "I will get back at you with a retalitory neg if you say a negative thing about me!"  :roll:


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Post Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 1:57 pm 
 

Beyondthebreach wrote:.........If you wait for the buyer, then you are essentially saying - "I will get back at you with a retalitory neg if you say a negative thing about me!"  :roll:
Exactly.........

Good and honest sellers have NOTHING to worry about from me, nor most of the other buyers on E-Bay either.

Describe it honestly and send it well packed in a timely manner and you will get a good feedback from me. Otherwise the flames will burn you......


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Post Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 2:01 pm 
 

Aneoth wrote:Exactly.........

Good and honest sellers have NOTHING to worry about from me, nor most of the buyers either. Describe it honestly and send it well packed in a timely manner and you will get a good feedback from me.

Otherwise the flames will burn you......


Well I consider myself an honest seller(and it seems a vast majority of buyer agree) and yet based on my past experiences, things just are not all nice and tidy like we would like them to be.  :)


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Last edited by bclarkie on Tue Feb 06, 2007 2:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
  


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Post Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 2:04 pm 
 

Beyondthebreach wrote:Sellers seem to think that negative feedback is always unwarranted.  Stand by your reputations!   If you wait for the buyer, then you are essentially saying - "I will get back at you with a retalitory neg if you say a negative thing about me!"  :roll:


I don't believe feedback negative feedback is always unwarranted, but how would you deal with a situation where it was unwarranted?  For example, exactly how would you have felt to be in Mike's position with the psycho buyer who bounced a check on him and yet still left him a neg?


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