Badmike wrote:And the level of quality of education is off the charts compared to my local school district (EX the range of languages you can learn in the local private Catholic school ranges from German, French, Spanish, Italian, Latin, Japanese, Chinese and Russian, while the local school offers only the first three).

It's ironic you cite availability of foreign languages as a difference between private Catholic schools and public schools.  My private Catholic high school, which was and still is considered one of the best in country, only had four foreign languages (Spanish, French, Italian and German) plus Latin, of course.  The local public high school I transfered into for only my senior year had all those plus Japanese, Chinese, Korean, and even American Sign Language if you count that. I jumped at the chance to take Japanese and it changed my life in an extremely positive way.  I even got a free trip to Japan provided by an ongoing program between the NYC Board of Education and the Japanese Ministry of Education.  If I had stayed in private Catholic high school, I might have ended up with a very mundane existence.  I also give D&D credit too..  

Is that the reason she's gone to Germany?

Xaxaxe wrote:
Okay, which one of you guys wee-wee'd in this guys cereal? Or maybe it was me:  

"wow, you actually found something useful on acaeum. usually it's a bunch loud-mouthed idiots harrassing newbies, standing on soapboxes, and generally being annoying. the guy running the site tries to do a good job with collector info, but the forums are just moronic flame-fests."

The post in question can be found at:

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/300096/page/5

(scroll down almost all the way to the bottom)

But, wait, it gets even better! Whoever this guy is, it's his first day over at BGG. I have no idea what his agenda is, but he's probably going to be gone soon; there's a fairly low tolerance for morons over there. You can be smug, you can be passive-aggressive, you can be argumentative, you can even do some thread-jacking, but they really frown on being a complete asshat over there.

My other favorite part is the lack of capital letters. The guy is either 12 or so, or he's a developmentally disabled adult or some sort. Much like here, the audience there tends to be slightly older and generally fairly well-educated ... they use capital letters, in other words. This guy, though, appears to have come directly from a video game forum.

+++++

Late edit: the guy just had his account suspended. Woot! He'll have to go somewhere else for his Acaeum-bashing.

That was a good laugh.  I wonder which guy we hammered?  Atari?

That Tonya thread is pretty funny also.  I have to say I enjoyed her response, particularly these lines:

We went from friendly to unfriendly pretty quickly, and I should have been able to avoid that. I need to get a new boyfriend, maybe then I wouldn't be so uptight.

Look, like you guys and gals I am a gamer. I like games. I'm a big ol gaming dork, and love to play DnD, and board games. But, "this" the selling of games - it is business to me. I either make money at it, or I do something else for money (not much call for leporous hookers, as you can imagine!).

Ok, so she likes to get laid, and she has fun with someone calling her a leporous hooker.....how many girls do any of us know that would admit to either?  Honestly I can see some Acaeum members in a few years sitting in a bar at Gencon buying her some beers as we discuss some of her more ridiculous "About Me Page" antics.

Mike B.

Xaxaxe wrote:... and now this clown is sending me nasty messages through the BGG system.   Big loser.

I wish I had Brian's skill with tracking people down, matching up IP addresses, etc. I have my suspicions on who this person is ... and I'm pretty sure I'm right ... but, technically, no way to verify it.

Oh, well, no biggie. I should probably let it go; like all other trolls, it's just the attention that he's after. Pathetic.

What's worse is that he's not even up to the standards of trolls like Atari, Afrika Corps, etc.  I mean, his stuff is pretty weak, not even worthy of being a foe of most of us. It's like one of Batman's villains, except we don't get Riddler, Joker, Penquin, etc. We get Calendar Man or TweedleDee and Tweedle Dum.

Mike B.

That old canard... private schools are no better than public schools in many ways.

True. And yet, where they do differ are in the ways that parents actually care about: better discipline, higher quality networking, and superior performance.

Now while there is clearly some self-selection going on.. wealthier families can afford private school and thus will likely have smarter than average parents, which in turn will make them better students.. it is nonetheless true that the incentives provided in private schools are the right ones.

I find it ironic that you mention that teachers -- in a private system -- have to suck up to parents to keep them happy. I think this is unlikely to be true, but at the very least a moot concern, since this is even worse of a problem in the public school system.

Moreover, you also mention there are good and bad apples in all professions. This is true. Yet the problem with teachers is that the vast majority of them aren't exposed to market pressures -- if they perform poorly, they actualy get rewarded (more funding, etc).. not punished like other professions.

In my view, there is really no reason for public schooling other than the power to indoctrinate students in a certain way (i.e. further the support of the state). [Actually, this was the initial motivation for public schooling in Germany and Canada; I'm not sure about the US]. After all, if it's just "to help poor people" or the disabled, then a simple subsidization scheme would be far more effective, and at lower cost.

But politicians need control...

Sea-to-sky-games wrote:I find it ironic that you mention that teachers -- in a private system -- have to suck up to parents to keep them happy. I think this is unlikely to be true

Having worked in both public and private schools, I have to say that it is entirely true.

Private school parents pay good money and they often expect a certain amount of power over the results.  How much power they have depends upon the character of administrators and the school's overall financial footing.  For instance...the board of directors of many private schools is an equal mix of the wealthiest and most psychotic parents.  Piss off a powerful or troublesome parent and you take your professional life in your hands...regardless of who is right.

In my old, private school, we had some students with massively inflated gradepoint averages get hammered on the SAT.  

Astonishingly...many people were unable to guess the reason for the discrepancy.  (HINT:  You cannot threaten to fire the people who administer the SAT if your child does not get the right score.)

Connected to my comments in the post above this one....often, the entire point of a private school is to get one's children away from other people's children.

Public schools do not have the luxury of turning away anyone.

Whatever social problems are out there inevitably overflow like sewage into our public schools.  Blaming the schools for these problems is illogical and counter-productive.

On the downside...many private school just don't have the finances to offer some of the best programs offered in the public schools  Sometimes (and I have two sets of inlaws who fall into this group) parents assume that "private" means "better" and are shocked when their kids transfer to public school and are way behind their grade-level peers.

Private school parents pay good money and they often expect a certain amount of power over the results.  How much power they have depends upon the character of administrators and the school's overall financial footing.  For instance...the board of directors of many private schools is an equal mix of the wealthiest and most psychotic parents.  Piss off a powerful or troublesome parent and you take your professional life in your hands...regardless of who is right.

In my old, private school, we had some students with massively inflated gradepoint averages get hammered on the SAT.  

Astonishingly...many people were unable to guess the reason for the discrepancy.  (HINT:  You cannot threaten to fire the people who administer the SAT if your child does not get the right score.)

Again, this aspect of public or private schooling is moot because it happens in both instititutions. But, to the extent in happens in the private system, at least there is some accountability:

If private schools develop a reputation for inflating scores but not helping students, they die out. If schools take a principled stance and assign grades on merit, they persist.

By contrast, in the public sphere there is no such accountability. And, in a sense, we actually pay even more money to have such inefficiencies persist (c.f. 'no child left behind program').

Connected to my comments in the post above this one....often, the entire point of a private school is to get one's children away from other people's children.

Public schools do not have the luxury of turning away anyone.

Whatever social problems are out there inevitably overflow like sewage into our public schools.  Blaming the schools for these problems is illogical and counter-productive.

Certainly, private schools are attractive because they cater to the tastes of parents. But there are some public schools in the poorest of neighborhoods that excel using the techniques in the private system (uniforms, discipline, some form of merit pay).. and even do better than many private schools. Ironically, the teacher's union eventually find ways to shut these "rogue" systems down.

On the downside...many private school just don't have the finances to offer some of the best programs offered in the public schools  Sometimes (and I have two sets of inlaws who fall into this group) parents assume that "private" means "better" and are shocked when their kids transfer to public school and are way behind their grade-level peers.

This is exactly why broad based comparisons are good. Looking at any two schools isn't likely to give a good indication of the quality of education across the two systems. On net private schools are better, but that doesn't mean there aren't good public schools or bad private schools.

*post deleted*

Went to answer some of your points Sea-to-Sky.

Where to even begin?  

Dropping the topic.  

It doesn't lend itself to soundbites or snappy answers.

Grug Greyskin wrote:Market driven education is hardly a disaster at the University level.  A mix of public and private institutions, with students free to choose where they want to go.  Dare I boast that we have the best university system in the world?

I've taught in public and private colleges (no experience in K-12), and there are the same problems with private colleges as with private high schools.  It's about student retention and grade inflation to keep the students and the paying parents happy.  Students at private colleges are required to have their hand held when making their course cards for the next semester because no chance can be taken that they may forget to register for next semester or register for the wrong class(es) which leads to angry calls from paying parents.  At a public college, students learn to be independent by making their own schedule based on what they need to graduate and consulting the college guidebooks.  That's just one example... which system do you think produces students that will be able to hold a job with responsibilities making decisions for themselves?  At elite private colleges, students rarely get less than a B.  There's a professor at Princeton who begins the semester telling his students that they'll all get at least a B because it's a lost cause trying to give real grades (fear of being bogged down by academic appeals and harassment irate parents/students)... but if students want to find out what they really deserve he'll tell them privately after the semester is over.  
The US has traditionally had one of the best university systems in the world due to objective learning outcomes and accountability but these are being undermined by market pressures (and the rest of the world is catching up by the way, and in almost every other country in the world the best universities are public).  When students, and parents, have the power of the purse then they demand, and get, good grades in exchange for little work.  If you want the truth about your work then you're more likely to get it at a public college that is more greatly insulated from market pressures than a private one that is dependent on market pressures.  

Grug Greyskin wrote:Why not the same thing at the secondary level?  

Because it doesn't work.  It commodifies an institution that is not akin to selling lattes or blue jeans.  Private schools oftentimes make teachers into salespeople and self-esteem coaches to keep retention rates high and the money flowing in.  It's not about educating and telling the student the truth of his/her learning, it's about the money each student brings to the institution.  

Grug Greyskin wrote:Parents can determine which school is best for their child - public or private - and let their tax dollars follow them.  States spend around $10K annually per student, which is competitive with the average private school tuition.  In fact, private schools that are more expensive may even lower tuition to attract public school students, in order to get that $ (less being better than none).  

Actually it will work the opposite way.  There have been studies that show that when students choose a college they strive for the more expensive ones thinking that higher cost equals better product.  That's why private colleges and universities raise their tuition higher every year; that is much higher than the rate of inflation.  Colleges that did not raise their tuition often or high enough found they were getting lower enrollments since students thought more expensive equaled better, like Payless shoes compared to Ferragamo.  What will happen is that no school will price itself at $10,000 but instead quickly raise the tuition costs to attract status conscious students and parents.  

Grug Greyskin wrote:How do the schools (public and private) compete for students?  By providing a world class education, that's how.

Actually not quite, there are myriad factors that parents and students consider when choosing a school, and how they define what a "world class" education is will vary greatly.  It's just not that simple.  I can see why Mark (FormCritic) decided to drop out of this debate.  It's complicated, and those who think school vouchers and the free market are the great panacea for what ails US education at any level just don't understand it and have probably never worked in the field at any level.  

Grug Greyskin wrote:Right now, a student in a poor performing public school has no options available to them, except to languish.  Why not give them an opportunity to go to a private school or better public school?

Why not fix the school they're in?  Shuffling the same students between different physical buildings is not going to solve the problem. Having almost every student in a given urban area trying to get into the "better" school where there are not enough seats is not going to solve the problem but will lead to massive overcrowding.  Plus who gets to decide who gets in and who doesn't in this one must-get-into school?  In addition, there is no incentive for the free market to serve poor or sparsely populated rural neighborhoods (i.e. no money) so they'll continue to be shafted.  The free market is great for blue jeans, lattes, Ferragamo shoes and D&D collecting, but it doesn't work well for education (or health care).