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Post Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 8:53 am 
 

bombadil wrote:Back to Big Ten football for a second:

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/recap?gameId=280010057

Be sure to note the table "Big Ten Chomp".   :D


Wheee....that was a damn good game.  :D   It is the only bowl game that I have actually watched from start to finish this season.  Of course now that I know better I wish I would have watched all of the Gator Bowl.  Texas Tech coming from 14 points behind in the fourth quarter to beat Virginia was apparently pretty spectacular.

Just not enough time to watch 'em all.  :(


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Post Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 3:07 pm 
 

Go Dogs!  Georgia whooped up on some Hawaii grass skirts.  Of course, somebody is going to say they knew that was going to happen all along but the fact of the matter is that few people did because of the Oklahoma vs. Boise State game last year.  It wasn't a particularly interesting game, but it was enjoyable for me.  Georgia should start out top 10 and maybe top 5 next year. :D


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Post Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 3:35 pm 
 

bombadil wrote:Back to Big Ten football for a second:

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/recap?gameId=280010057

Be sure to note the table "Big Ten Chomp".   :D


Not a bad bowl season for the nation's two premiere conferences.

The Big Ten went 3-4 (chance for Ohio to make it 4-4)

The Pac Ten went 3-2  (just a whisper away from 4-1 with the UCLA loss)

The two conferences of 21 teams (about 10% of the total), scored 13 of the possible 64 bowl berths (about 20% of the total).

An astonishing 8 out of 11 teams in the Big Ten earned bowl berths, and half the teams in the Pac Ten made it to bowl games.

It is possible for a Big Ten team to win the national championship without going undefeated (a Pac Ten team has to be undefeated).  If it weren't for that, the two conferences would be better off bagging the BCS and going back to the de facto national championship game...the Rose Bowl.


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Post Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 4:19 pm 
 

FormCritic wrote:The Pac Ten went 3-2  (just a whisper away from 4-1 with the UCLA loss)

4-2, actually ... by finishing with four straight wins (Oregon State, Cal, Oregon, USC).

FormCritic wrote:An astonishing 8 out of 11 teams in the Big Ten earned bowl berths, and half the teams in the Pac Ten made it to bowl games.

Sadly, the "percentage of teams" argument really doesn't mean much, as all bowl matchups have been "tie-ins" for many, many years now. Each of the nine Division I-A conferences is guaranteed X number of total spots in the 32 games, provided X is filled by teams with six or more wins.

SEC fans, for instance, like to crow about getting nine bowl spots this year ... as if every single spot wasn't guaranteed before the season started. Then again, SEC fans often occupy a separate version of reality than the rest of us.

The only exceptions to the guarantees are the at-large spots in the five BCS bowls. Teams that "move up" into an at-large spot usually create a vacancy for a fellow conference member to go to a lesser bowl ... although if no one else in the conference has hit the six-win minimum, that spot can end up going to a team from some other conference.

Kingofpain89 wrote:Wheee....that was a damn good game.

It really was. It had everything a good bowl is supposed to have — mostly an interesting matchup between two solid teams — and then lived up to its billing.

It's also interesting to note that the defending national champions just lost to the same team that managed to begin the season by losing to Appalachian State.   8O

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Post Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 4:55 pm 
 

Whoops...I forgot to count the California victory.  

I tend to forget that Cal is in the Pac Ten.  It's almost like California cheated by getting two extra teams into the conference.  

I didn't realize that the BCS system was so rigged.  Basically, the major conferences conspired to freeze everyone else out....

Which makes the BCS even less legitimate than I thought it was.

We should just go back to settling things every year in the Rose Bowl.


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Post Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 4:57 pm 
 

FormCritic wrote:
Not a bad bowl season for the nation's two premiere conferences.

The Big Ten went 3-4 (chance for Ohio to make it 4-4)

The Pac Ten went 3-2  (just a whisper away from 4-1 with the UCLA loss)

The two conferences of 21 teams (about 10% of the total), scored 13 of the possible 64 bowl berths (about 20% of the total).

An astonishing 8 out of 11 teams in the Big Ten earned bowl berths, and half the teams in the Pac Ten made it to bowl games.

It is possible for a Big Ten team to win the national championship without going undefeated (a Pac Ten team has to be undefeated).  If it weren't for that, the two conferences would be better off bagging the BCS and going back to the de facto national championship game...the Rose Bowl.


Whatever Mark.... PDT_Armataz_01_27

It sounds as if you are saying that because the Big Ten and Pac-10 sent so many teams to bowl games that they are better than the other conferences.  I hope that isnt the case because the ACC and Big 12 both sent 8 and the SEC sent 9.  And since the ACC is currently 2-5 in bowl games I am pretty sure you don't equate being "a premiere conference" with the number of bowl games played in.  The Big 12 has a chance to finish the bowl season with a 6-2 record with a Oklahoma win tonight and a Kansas win in the Orange Bowl.  Even if Oklahoma and Kansas both lose the Big 12's bowl record will still be .500....better than the Big Ten's .429.

The BCS is here to stay....at least until someone comes up with a better alternative and I seriously doubt it will happen anytime soon.  Your poor Rose Bowl with all its history and significance is now just another BCS bowl.  It's too bad they couldnt have had a better matchup for USC this year.  Maybe you could lobby the decision makers to make the Cotton Bowl a BCS site and the Rose Bowl could go back to being Pac-10 v. Big Ten every year.  Especially since the new Dallas Cowboys stadium in all it's ridiculous steel and glass glory will be the new home of the Cotton Bowl soon enough.

All I gotta say is this:  Texas 51, Arizona St. 34.

:D


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Post Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 5:16 pm 
 

Kingofpain89 wrote:I hope that isnt the case because the ACC and Big 12 both sent 8 and the SEC sent 9.

Again, this is meaningless.

All bowl positions are guaranteed before the season even begins. You can pick up any preseason college football magazine in July, cut the list out and pin it to the fridge ... and it will not change.

The ACC, Big 12, and SEC gain large number of bowl berths because they are large conferences. No other reason. The other three so-called "BCS conferences" are all smaller and therefore are granted fewer guaranteed bowl berths. It is not a merit-based system.*

+++++

*Well, other than for the four teams who manage to weasel their way into at-large spots in the BCS games. But, due to the five BCS games working under their own system, that's almost a separate argument.

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Post Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 5:47 pm 
 

Kingofpain89 wrote:

The BCS is here to stay....at least until someone comes up with a better alternative and I seriously doubt it will happen anytime soon.  Your poor Rose Bowl with all its history and significance is now just another BCS bowl.  It's too bad they couldnt have had a better matchup for USC this year.  Maybe you could lobby the decision makers to make the Cotton Bowl a BCS site and the Rose Bowl could go back to being Pac-10 v. Big Ten every year.  Especially since the new Dallas Cowboys stadium in all it's ridiculous steel and glass glory will be the new home of the Cotton Bowl soon enough.

All I gotta say is this:  Texas 51, Arizona St. 34.

:D


I refuse to invest too much time into bowl games until they someday do the logical thing and work out a playoff system.  Coming from a college with no football team (Texas Wesleyan University), I have always been able to stay just a little bit emotionally out of the fray.  And in the last 30 years or so have gotten quite sick listening to college football fans leverage their 6th ranked team's win over a 5th ranked teams win in the Jalapeno and Cheddar Cheese Bowl into a mythical  "championship'...which, in my mind, will always be mythical until they develop a playoff system.

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Post Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 6:06 pm 
 

Xaxaxe wrote:Again, this is meaningless.

All bowl positions are guaranteed before the season even begins. You can pick up any preseason college football magazine in July, cut the list out and pin it to the fridge ... and it will not change.

The ACC, Big 12, and SEC gain large number of bowl berths because they are large conferences. No other reason. The other three so-called "BCS conferences" are all smaller and therefore are granted fewer guaranteed bowl berths. It is not a merit-based system.*

+++++

*Well, other than for the four teams who manage to weasel their way into at-large spots in the BCS games. But, due to the five BCS games working under their own system, that's almost a separate argument.


But what you fail to see my dear Xaxaxe is that I know this already.  I was just giving Mark a good natured, Big 12 biased ribbing.  Mainly because of his post a few pages back:

By the way, didn't my Rose Bowl rant outrage anyone?  :evil:

I was expecting some sort of backlash.  8)

Were my arguments too logical and incontrovertible....or was it just that no one cared?  :x


I figured that he expected that if he kept up with the Rose Bowl this and that, that at some point someone was going to say something.  I figured I might as well be the one to do it since I have a deep dislike for all Pac-10 teams...especially USC and UCLA.  Why is it that UCLA can be a twenty point underdog, unranked, 0-2 against subpar non-conference teams and still find a way to beat a Texas team ranked fourth in the country?  :roll:

Anyway...as much as I enjoyed watching Texas in their two Rose Bowl wins I just dont see what all the hoopla is about.  Sure it's the "Granddaddy" of all the bowl games but its still just another bowl game.  Maybe a bit better than say the Meineke Car Care or the Gaylord Music City bowls but not by much.  :wink:


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Post Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 6:08 pm 
 

Badmike wrote:And in the last 30 years or so have gotten quite sick listening to college football fans leverage their 6th ranked team's win over a 5th ranked teams win in the Jalapeno and Cheddar Cheese Bowl into a mythical  "championship'...which, in my mind, will always be mythical until they develop a playoff system.


Ahhh yes, the Queso Bowl...  My favorite...

urp!

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Post Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 6:19 pm 
 

Another thing;

Over the years, I've found the emotional investment in a college football team (even more than pro teams) leads to some of the most unfortunately biased rantings and arguments...most times ending in fisticuffs...between fans of different teams, or even conferences.   I have always theorized the bowl system was built on this fact, because the effect of half the bowl teams "winning" their last game of the season might have led to a large drop off in violence had we had a college football playoff system the last 50 years or so....imagine ONE and ONLY ONE team daring to point out they had legitimtely beat all comers and were #1?  Teenage suicides across the nation might have risen 500% the last few decades.

In the mid eighties, with most of my friends either Texas A&M or University of Texas students, and me going to a college without a football team, I arbitrarily chose a college team to follow for the hell ofit, just to have someone to root for on Saturdays. Well, I chose the Miami Hurricaine (don't even remember why, I think they had just won the 1983 championship). I went ahead and bought some Miami sweatshirts and such, and duitifully rooted for them when I could catch a game, or when they played in a bowl game.

My rooting interest was lukewarm, but I really played it up when the Hurricane played Texas teams, or OU.  I could turn my interest in the Hurricane football program on or off as the situation demanded.  Unfortunately my friends couldnt' just turn on or off their loyalty, and sometimes the betting and jeering got fierce and almost ugly; it didnt' help that Miami was somewhat dominate from 1987-1992 or so.   I distinctly remember the 1990 Cotton Bowl where the Canes played UT and hammered them unmercifully 46-3. Several of the people attending the game watching party I was at left in tears...grown men weeping uncontrollably as the Canes piled on points after points, women with "hook em Horns" t shirts sobbing and drinking far too much, older people sitting motionless, grimfaced and shattered, downing beer after beer.  And me, the only person present with a Cane's jersey......looking nervously for the exits as the Cane's got penalties for unsportsmanlike conduct....all the while UT fans shooting me murderous glances as Cane's players over celebrated every TD.

The only thing that saved me was the incredibly obnoxious Aggie fans who were also at the watching party....whooping and hollaring and laughing as if they themselves were handing the Horns a ass whipping.  It almost got really ugly before I quietly slipped out a back door to a local bar to watch the game's finish...

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Post Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 6:46 pm 
 

*****

Okay, that does it ... college football lesson coming! Especially for you heathens in the South and Southwest.  :)  :wink:

*****

Kingofpain89 wrote:Sure it's the "Granddaddy" of all the bowl games but its still just another bowl game.

But it's not ... although I agree that it's mostly misunderstood by football fans outside of the Midwest or Far West.

Here's the thing about the Rose Bowl: it is a partnership with very loyal partners. The Big Ten, Pac-10, and Rose Bowl committee are exceptionally loyal to each other and they have a deep respect for the history of not only the respective conferences but for their shared experiences in the Rose Bowl. Especially in the current show-me-the-money world of sports, it's a very unique partnership.

This loyalty has been tested many times before, but the three partners have almost always stuck together. Anyone remember the Bowl Coalition and the Bowl Alliance from the 1990s? They were pretty much the current BCS system ... except that the Pac-10 and Big Ten were not members and the Rose Bowl was not included in the bowl rotation. It took a lot of convincing before those three partners would agree to sign on with the current BCS system (which debuted after the 1998 regular season) ... and there's still some officials within the Rose Bowl partnership who wish they never would have signed.

Or take this season as a most recent example. The Rose Bowl committee, which lost Ohio State to the BSC title game, had some very nice consolation prizes to consider during the selection process. Hey, look, it's West Virginia! They would only bring about 6 million fans to the game. Hey, look, its Georgia! They are only the hottest team in the country. So we'll take ... Illinois. 8O

I doubt the committee even really hesitated over this decision. Again, it's back to the loyalty and tradition. Illinois is part of the "Rose Bowl family" ... you can laugh, smirk, or howl all you want, but here's the thing: anyone who doesn't understand why the Rose Bowl committee would choose Illinois just doesn't grasp how loyal the three partners are to each other. This is sort of an understood thing if you're a college football fan in California or Michigan, but I suppose I can understand that's it's not common knowledge elsewhere.

And here's the best part about the Rose Bowl: it is definitely not like the other 31 games. It is the only bowl that could choose to go its own way and still get huge TV ratings, still sell 95,000 tickets every year, and still be talked about by casual and rabid fans alike. That's one of the benefits to being 33 years older than the next-oldest bowl game.

Or, as someone in the partnership once said (and I wish I could remember who it was): "What we have is the one football game that is important to all those people who only watch one football game every year." Now as stupid as that sounds on the surface, it's also pretty much true ... and that's a lot of people.

Kingofpain89 wrote:Why is it that UCLA can be a twenty point underdog, unranked, 0-2 against subpar non-conference teams and still find a way to beat a Texas team ranked fourth in the country

Ah ... would that be the 1997 game? UCLA 66, Texas 3. I'll tell you, not even rabid Pac-10 fans can explain that one.

It's a good trivia question, too: what is the largest margin of victory for an unranked team over a ranked team in college football history?

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Post Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 7:11 pm 
 

Badmike wrote:I distinctly remember the 1990 Cotton Bowl where the Canes played UT and hammered them unmercifully 46-3.

That's actually a historic game, although many don't realize it.

That game (1991, BTW, although following the 1990 season), more than any other, led to the current NCAA rules regarding "excessive celebrations," taunting, and other limitations.

For anyone who didn't see it ... well, it was ugly. I stopped watching after a while and I was a pretty fanatic football fan. Miami went totally OTT in celebrating every first down, every big hit, and every Texas miscue. And they were all posing on the sidelines for the cameras (CBS, I think), flashing gang signs, etc.

Which was another interesting issue: almost without exception, the most out-of-control players were blacks. They just were; there's no arguing it. But when the NCAA began to limit celebrating and taunting, some civil rights groups became upset that the rules were"targeting" blacks. It was a hot-button issue for a year or so, but, thankfully, the NCAA showed some backbone and basically said, "These rules affect all players, regardless of race." After a few months, the whole debate sort of just went away.

I think that game set a bowl record for penalty yardage ... or maybe it was a record for personal-foul penalties (Miami had like eight calls for either roughing or unsportsmanlike conduct). Either way, it was disastrous: it was a poor reflection on Miami, the Cotton Bowl, and the state of the college game at the time. Miami was hardly the only team from that era doing way too much posing and preening.

Badmike wrote:Over the years, I've found the emotional investment in a college football team (even more than pro teams) leads to some of the most unfortunately biased rantings and arguments...most times ending in fisticuffs...between fans of different teams, or even conferences.

What's scary is how true this can be ... with rabid college football fans, there's a sense of personal well-being that's at stake that just can't be found even in the most loyal of NFL fans. Clearly, some of it has to do with actually attending the school in question, but that doesn't explain all of it ... I mean, not everyone in Tennessee actually went to Tennessee, if you see what I'm getting at.

And the scariest college fans of all? The women. Truly frightening. The more they loved going to school there, the more they cannot be reasoned with on game day.

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Post Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 7:36 pm 
 

Xaxaxe wrote:*****

Okay, that does it ... college football lesson coming! Especially for you heathens in the South and Southwest.  :)  :wink:


Let me reiterate my previous statement.  My feigned ignorance of the Rose Bowl was for Mark's benefit.  That's what the winky face was for.  I may not know every single iota of information about the history of college football or the Rose Bowl but I would much rather sit and watch a college football game than an NFL game any day of the week.

Both times Texas played in the Rose Bowl I was thrilled.  For them to get to play in the most storied bowl game of all time was a dream for the players and the fans.  For them to beat both Michigan and USC for the national championship was simply the ultimate feat for the Longhorns.  I dont think I will ever see a football game quite like the national championship game of 2005.

And yeah, you nailed it on the head with that UCLA shellacking of Texas.  That was simply the second most embarrassing loss that they have endured while I have been watching Texas Longhorn football.  The worst was as Mike stated, the Cotton Bowl loss to the Hurricanes.  I did watch that game and it was equally embarrassing.  Texas was ranked number two going into that game and anyone that was a Longhorn fan was thinking national championship if we could beat the 'Canes.  It was apparent real quick that Texas just couldnt hang with Miami.  :?


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Post Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 7:45 pm 
 

Badmike wrote:I refuse to invest too much time into bowl games until they someday do the logical thing and work out a playoff system.  Coming from a college with no football team (Texas Wesleyan University), I have always been able to stay just a little bit emotionally out of the fray.  And in the last 30 years or so have gotten quite sick listening to college football fans leverage their 6th ranked team's win over a 5th ranked teams win in the Jalapeno and Cheddar Cheese Bowl into a mythical  "championship'...which, in my mind, will always be mythical until they develop a playoff system.
Mike B.


I couldn't agree more.  I also went to a non-football school, but only a playoff system of eight or more teams really means anything.  The current system is designed first and foremost for one thing: TO MAKE MONEY.  The football championship is secondary.  Only once enough people get sick of the current system and it begins to make less money or they feel like a playoff system will make them more money will the system change.

I do have hope that it will change.  The current system is obviously fraught with politics and power in addition to money issues.  The game needs to be more about the players and plays on the field and less about the system.  I get the sense that more and more people talk about changing the current system each year.  People are not satisfied with the status quo.  And remember, the BCS system is relatively new.  I certainly hope they go to a playoff system.


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Post Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 7:53 pm 
 

Kingofpain89 wrote:Both times Texas played in the Rose Bowl I was thrilled.

Those were both great games, especially the USC game. I was glued to my chair for every single play.

I think those games also helped the Rose Bowl/Big Ten/Pac-10 triumvirate see that maybe ... just maybe ... the world would not end if tradition had to go out the window every so often. Actually, the 2002 game was pretty funny, too ... despite hosting the national championship game, there was still a lot of grumbling from some sources that it would be the first Rose Bowl game since 1919 to not include a Pac-10 team. Ah, tradition and grumpy old men ... you just can't beat it!

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Post Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 8:02 pm 
 

Real quick, for the record: I've had nothing but good experiences with football fans from Texas. They tend to be knowledgeable without being obnoxious about it ... and they like food and drink. Nothing wrong with that.

One example: I actually sat in a mixed, but pro-Texas section for the 2000 Holiday Bowl, proudly wearing the green and gold of the Oregon Ducks. The Texas fans were great, even with their huge disappointment at the end (wide-open Texas receivers dropped not one, but two, game-winning passes in the final minute ... it was surreal). And the Texas band was frickin' awesome!

If only the same could be said for fans from many other areas. Yes, I'm talking to you, Oklahoma fans ... you insufferable morons. And you, too, three-quarters of the SEC ...

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Post Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 8:04 pm 
 

Xaxaxe wrote:And here's the best part about the Rose Bowl: it is definitely not like the other 31 games. It is the only bowl that could choose to go its own way and still get huge TV ratings, still sell 95,000 tickets every year, and still be talked about by casual and rabid fans alike. That's one of the benefits to being 33 years older than the next-oldest bowl game.


Yeah, it still can sell that many tickets and generate that much excitement for now and probably the near future, but if it keeps picking non-top ten teams like Illinois, it'll become more and more irrelevant.  The match-up was surprising to say the least.  Every tradition has momentum, for good or for bad.  I think the positive Rose Bowl tradition is not primarily a product of age, but of the best teams in the nation playing each other for high stakes. That's what made the Rose Bowl great; and that was lacking this year.


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