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Post Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 9:21 am 
 

If you watched last night's game between the Pack and the Broncos, you got to hear some of the "experts" weigh in on why they think the Pats are running up the score on the teams they have played.  I think that Bill Parcells hit it on the head with his comment that basically Belichick and the Pats are out to prove to everyone that they are the best team in the NFL and they dont need to cheat to beat anyone.  There was also some speculation that the Krafts (owners) are none too happy with Belichick at the moment and dont like the way he has basically turned the Pats into the New York Yankees of the NFL.

But honestly...I really dont know if all the hate is justified.  I dont really like the Pats, but that isnt because of anything that they have done on the field.  I am a Cowboys fan so it doesnt make sense for me to also be a Pats fan.  But I do respect them...because they are, at this point, the best team by far in the NFL.  Is Belichick really running up the score on these teams just because he wants to make a point?  Maybe, but doesnt it seem more obvious that he is keeping Brady in there because he has a chance to shatter just about every single season QB record there is?  Brady has always been considered to be second-best to Peyton Manning.  Regardless of his three Super Bowl wins and Super Bowl MVP awards, he still doesn't get the respect (at least not in this part of the country) that Peyton Manning does.

Or are the Pats just that much better than all of the other NFL teams?  It is kind of difficult to "not score" when you have demoralized and destroyed your opponent.  When I played football in high school we played a team that at the time was 0-7.  We knew they were  bad but didnt realize just how bad they were.  We started the game by running back the opening kickoff 78 yards.  We scored a touchdown on the very next play.  By halftime, the score was 42-0.  Most of the first string players were so tired by halftime due to all the running we were doing during kickoffs that our coach put the majority of the second string players in.  It didnt matter.  We still scored points on them.  At one point the coach was putting in linemen to run the ball just to give the running backs a break.  We had our third string QB in and he was making mistakes but we were still moving the ball down the field.  Eventually late in the game the other team was able to move the ball on our freshmen defense and score a touchdown.  However they only came away with six points due to a blocked extra point.  At the end of the game the score was 65-6 and we had racked up over 700 yards of total offense and held them to less than 100 yards of offense.  The opposing coach told our coach that he was unhappy because we ran up the score but how do you justify not scoring when you have the opportunity to?  Two weeks later we played our last game of the year and got beat 38-0 by the eventual Texas state 1A champions.  After the game one of our coaches was pissed that they ran the score up on us.  I didnt understand why he felt that way because up until that game we were a very good team and were considered a significant threat to them.  Their coach came over to us after the game and told us that even though the score didnt reflect it, that we were the toughest team they played all year and they had worked their asses off that week in preparation for the game.  Several of their starters went on to play college football and two of them ended up in the NFL.  I still have the distinct pleasure of knocking Zach Thomas (Miami Dolphins LB for anyone who doesnt know) on his ass during a kickoff return during that game.  Suffice to say he wasnt nearly as big then as he is now!  :wink:

I think the Pats will continue to dominate teams the rest of the year as long as Brady and Moss stay healthy.  My feeling is that they will crush the Colts next week and run the gauntlet on the rest if their opponents and we will see only the second team in NFL history to go undefeated in the regular season.  The playoffs are another matter though.  We'll see what happens then.


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Post Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 9:43 am 
 

Kingofpain89 wrote:My feeling is that they will crush the Colts next week and run the gauntlet on the rest if their opponents and we will see only the second team in NFL history to go undefeated in the regular season.  The playoffs are another matter though.  We'll see what happens then.


The last game of the season for the Pats is the NY Giants. At that point, the Pats should easily have home field advantage. The Giants will probably still be fighting for a wild card (with the Cowboys being the team they are this year). If Bellicheat is smart (and everyone says he is a GENIUS), he'll sit out the starters. So I see 16-0 pretty difficult for that reason more than any other. (They may sit out the starters earlier, but the games previous to the Giants are the Jets and the Dolphins... the Pats second string could still beat them).


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Post Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 9:52 am 
 

Kingofpain89 wrote:Brady has always been considered to be second-best to Peyton Manning.  Regardless of his three Super Bowl wins and Super Bowl MVP awards, he still doesn't get the respect (at least not in this part of the country) that Peyton Manning does.


King, I don't know what television shows you watch, but all the national guys can't ever stop falling over themselves to talk about how great f**king Brady is, Phil Simms probably more so than anyone else.  They all talk like he is the second coming of Christ. As a matter of fact until Manning won the SB last year he was roundly considered to be completely inferior to Brady, as although he always put up great regular season numbers, he could never win the "Big One". :roll:


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Post Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 10:14 am 
 

khartsfield wrote:
What if that happens this year? How will Bellicheat answer that? When his start QB (and KEY to their success) gets hurt because he was in there with a 30+ point lead in the 4th quarter? All those damn Pats fans that think its so cool to see the score ran up may think different...


I don't know if PATS fans are that happy.....the very few I know are nervous nellies when Brady is out there running around in the pocket with a 30 pt lead...but I know FANTASY owners who have him in their leagues love it (cue Badmike and Kingofpain doing a victory dance as Brady throws his 5th TD of the day...).  But yeh, you have to wonder, with the Jets and Dolphins with nothing to play for in the last two weeks of the season...if Brady is even going to see the field more than a half.  If he does, Belicheat is a bonafide lunatic.  Far from being reviled, a nobody defensive player of the Jets or Dolphins could "make his bones" by delivering a vicious hit on Brady if he's throwing in the 4th quarter of a not close game, and perhaps even get a few phone calls from players around the league as he sits out his suspension thanking him for ruining the Pats playoff chances...

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Post Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 10:28 am 
 

The Krafts are plenty happy with Belichick. He makes them a stupid amount of money, and he wins. The rumors are just rumors.
As far as running up the score, I can name several coaches and industry figures who specifically questioned the Pats' past successes, and specifically stated that their success was due to the videotaping (which all teams used to do). He has every right to run the score up as high as he wants. Don't like it? Then play better, and stop them. I don't recall anyone claiming the Colts were running up the score in the past... And everyone needs to stop acting like this is intramural high school football. There are HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS of dollars involved here. If it were my team, I wouldn't have taken Brady out at all. A TD record for him means more money for the Pats, plain and simple.  
Scoring the most points ever in a season means more money for the Pats. And when it all comes down to it, it is a JOB. People get PAID people make MONEY.
The sour grapes thing is old and childish. This happens every single year that the Pats do well. First it's the tuck rule, then receiver bumping, blah blah blah.
The Pats win because they have the best coaching staff in the league. They won 3 times without Moss and Welker, in fact their receivers have typically been average or slightly below, as have their running backs.
The Colts game next week is of course blown out of proportion. Neither team will fail to make the playoffs if they lose. But the NFL loves to hype games, which is fine, it makes them more money. The Pats certainly have the edge, but Indy could just as easily win. We shall see.


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Post Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 10:36 am 
 

As an addendum: I hear a lot about how if Brady went down the team would fall apart. Has that not ALWAYS been the case with the Colts? Anyone even know who the Colts backup QB is? Do they even HAVE one?
Brady is so pissed off right now he'd play if he was missing a limb; I would be too if I had his ability and everyone in the league was claiming I was only doing well because of videotaping. Believe me, I know this team like the back of my hand and they are BULLSHIT that the league as a whole implied that they were not "the real deal" (the exact words Crayton used after they got shellacked). I have no probs at all with him being out there. It's a job. If they don't win the Lomby this year, so what, it was a good year and I enjoyed watching the games. In the meantime, if you play the Pats, best be ready to pay the piper.


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Post Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 10:40 am 
 

Kingofpain89 wrote:If you watched last night's game between the Pack and the Broncos, you got to hear some of the "experts" weigh in on why they think the Pats are running up the score on the teams they have played.  I think that Bill Parcells hit it on the head with his comment that basically Belichick and the Pats are out to prove to everyone that they are the best team in the NFL and they dont need to cheat to beat anyone.  There was also some speculation that the Krafts (owners) are none too happy with Belichick at the moment and dont like the way he has basically turned the Pats into the New York Yankees of the NFL.

.


I thought Parcells hit the nail on the head...but with a twist.  I think Bellicheat is running up the score because it's basically his way of giving the middle finger to the commissioner, to the league, and to the coaches who turned him in for cheating.  They've already "punished" him, there is nothing more anyone can do, so why not rub their noses in it by turning the games into mockeries?  In Bellicheat's mind (and it may be reality, who knows) everyone does it, only HE got caught and punished for it, and he's showing up what he considers the "hypocrites" of the NFL by basically beating the crap out of them and utterly humiliating them.  

Unfortunately, the reason I would be upset if I was Pats management, is that this is just a job to Bellicheat that he can leave any day, and the players and management have to stick around.  And a lot of the coaches, and players, being humiliated this season have long memories...and will be up for payback in the years to come.  I mean, the Dolphins aren't going to be sad sack forever...and the Pats, through no fault of their own, will be on the end of a shellacking themselves, or maybe even a cheap shot or two in the next couple of years after Bellicheat has retired to Maui or where ever. The Krafts have to think long term here, and it's not nice to piss off coaches (and even owners) who may not appreciate the head games Bellicheat is pulling right now and take it out on franchise players...which are sizable financial investments for the Krafts.

Confession time:  I sat down to watch the Pats/Redskins hoping for a Skins beat down....I'm a Cowboys fan after all, and the worse the skins lose, the better, plus I have Brady as QB in one of my leagues.  By the 4th quarter, I was cheering for a Skins TD, a late hit on Brady, a cheap shot on Moss, anything just to wipe the insrutable look on Bellicheat's mug off his face. if I was the coach for the Jets or Dolphins, and in Week 14 or 15 the Pats were running QB sneaks or fake spikes late in the game with a sizable lead, I would start calling blitzes on every play...with orders to have Brady ON THE GROUND when the whistle blows, by hook or by crook. I mean,you are going to lose anyway, why be the Pat's bitch also?  And Moss....well, if you have to give up a few defensive interference penalties, but Moss is taking a nice blistering slam at the end of each play, I mean, you are going to lose anyway...Payback's gonna be a bitch....

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Post Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 11:33 am 
 

bclarkie wrote:
King, I don't know what television shows you watch, but all the national guys can't ever stop falling over themselves to talk about how great f**king Brady is, Phil Simms probably more so than anyone else.  They all talk like he is the second coming of Christ. As a matter of fact until Manning won the SB last year he was roundly considered to be completely inferior to Brady, as although he always put up great regular season numbers, he could never win the "Big One". :roll:


Ever since he got out of college, Peyton Manning has been destined for greatness.  Before he ever touched a football in the NFL, the critics and sports writers had already crowned him as a great NFL QB.  Tom Brady, on the other hand, was never considered to be a great quarterback.  Competent but not great.  Sure he took the Michigan Wolverines to a bowl game and won but big deal.  I am a Michigan Wolverines fan and I dont know a whole lot about his career with the Wolverines other than he was Brian Griese's backup the year they won the national championship.  Peyton Manning?  The guy has won more awards for football excellence than I can count.  Sure, after ten years and leading the Colts to the playoffs a number of times, people are going to start saying that "to be a great quarterback Peyton must win the Super Bowl".  But I dont recall anyone saying that he was inferior to Brady.  That is a load of BS and is just dumbass critics saying what they need to say to sell the show.  Look at Dan Marino...the guy never won one and he is looked up to as what every great QB is supposed to be.  Brett Favre only has one Super Bowl title and he is right there with Marino.

I dont know what it is about people that dictate that to be "Great" at something means that you have to win championships?  In a team sport, how is it that anyone can think that?  You have to have a great team to win and do it consistently.  I consider Joe Montana to be one of the best QB's ever to play the game but a single great player can only do so much.  Same with Troy Aikman and Emmitt Smith.  They are both damn good players but what made them great was their team members.  Smith would never have broken the rushing title without that offensive line and 30+ carries a game.

As far as Phil Simms is concerned, he is right up there with Joe Theismann as far as stupidity levels are concerned.  Sorry...but ex-football players shouldnt be allowed to be commentators.  :roll:


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Post Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 11:39 am 
 

How do we know that Bill Bellicose isn't still cheating now???

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Post Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 11:45 am 
 

ya know...its wierd this talk that y'all have of "running up the score" and all that, that the pats are being apparently accused of. i really dont understand it. maybe its because of the fact that i am british and my mind-set is totally different from that perspective, i really dont know.

suffice to say this though:

if i was running an NFL team, i would want to WIN. simple as that and i would want to win by as much as possible. so if it meant i was 52-7 up or whatever and the chance was there to score more, well f*ck that, get in there and stick the points on them! sheesh what is that about!

what i WOULD do though, if the score was a very comfortable one that would allow me variety, i would throw on players i wanted to have a look at/test etc and use the opportunity from a different perspective and give them some game-time.

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Post Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 12:30 pm 
 

killjoy32 wrote:ya know...its wierd this talk that y'all have of "running up the score" and all that, that the pats are being apparently accused of. i really dont understand it. maybe its because of the fact that i am british and my mind-set is totally different from that perspective, i really dont know.

suffice to say this though:

if i was running an NFL team, i would want to WIN. simple as that and i would want to win by as much as possible. so if it meant i was 52-7 up or whatever and the chance was there to score more, well f*ck that, get in there and stick the points on them! sheesh what is that about!

what i WOULD do though, if the score was a very comfortable one that would allow me variety, i would throw on players i wanted to have a look at/test etc and use the opportunity from a different perspective and give them some game-time.

Al


Well, Al, you have to understand there are two kinds of running up the score. One is what ex Dallas Cowboys coach Jimmy Johnson used to do.  During the Aikman-Irvin-Smith glory days, if the Cowboys were ahead by say 4 TDs in the 4th quarter in an otherwise meaningless game, he'd put in the scrubs, call off the blitzes, and run the ball every play when the Cowboys were on offense...predicated that the other team would do the same. If, however, the other team didn't follow suit by also just running the ball (basically trying to just get the game over) and started throwing long bombs, running no huddle plays, keeping all their starters in, well, it was fair game for the Cowboys to also stick their starters back in, start running blitzes, etc.  His quote was "The other team hasn't stopped playing offense, so I won't either" when asked about that.  Basically acknowledging that the other team and the Cowboys kind of had a gentleman's agreement...we'll call off the dogs if you decide to go quietly. In this case, running up the score is simply a byproduct of the fact "We are just trying to get the game over with". Hell, I've seen teams take a knee for three straight plays when they are at the other teams 1 yard line and already ahead, rather than punch in a meaningless TD or kick a meaningless FG just to be bastards.

What Bellicheat is doing is an entirely different monster.  He's deliberately trying to HUMILIATE the other team by pulling nonsense like not kicking a short Field goal and going for it on 4th down (up by five TDS!), throwing the ball late in the game instead of just handing the ball off and running out the clock, running trick plays up by 5 TDs in the 4th quarter.  If Bellicheat was pulling all his starters when up by 5 TDs and having the backup QB hand the ball off every play to the backup RB, and they were STILL putting up 50 pts a game, no one would be complaining.  This is just overkill.  Every sport has a procedure for this sort of thing...when your baseball team is up 10 runs you don't steal a base....when a basketball team is up 50 pts you pull all your starters and play the token white guy at the end of the bench....when a hockey team is up by 8 goals you put in the backup goalie...hell maybe even you english soccer teams have a similar procedure (since I've never seen a team up more than 2 goals in a game in my life I can't guess at this....!)  It's just understood...Belicheat is single handedly making a mockery of the "gentleman's code" of pro sports.

The question isn't whether or not they can do it...hell, probably any given Sunday a really good football team could put up 50 on a dog if they WANTED to wipe their boot on them...but they don't, because it's not good sportsmanship, and even worse, as people on this board have been saying, payback is a bitch. As an example, look at when the Cowboys or Packers play, and how the QBs Romo and Favre interact with the other team. They are laughing, slapping the opponents on the helmets when they make a big play, and patting the other team on the back and butts, hell Favre made a big joke about getting sacked by Strahan a few years back when Strahan got the sack record (he basically fell down as Strahan came at him....handing him the record).  This may seem counter intuitive but I wonder if that's why no one has ever really taken a cheap shot at Favre, and hopefully that will follow Romo also.

So, conversely, if your team is having it's nose rubbed into it's own crap by a superior team who are going out of their way to do so, you don't think it pops into a defensive lineman's mind "Man, that pretty boy Brady is still THROWING and they are up by 5 TDs, F**k this, the next time I get in there I'm going to pound that little punk....."  I guarantee you that guys like Favre and Romo are out there trying to make their teams win any way possible without pissing someone off.  At this point, it's really just looking like both Bellicheat and Brady are padding Brady's stats, running up the score for the purpose of trying to prove some point, and taking a chance on turning the end of the season games into some real ugliness.

Honestly, if I was a Pats fan, I would be worried sick about the last three weeks of the season and facing a Jets and Dolphins team (and maybe even a Giants team) that may have no reason to play except to hurt someone....particularly the Jets, whose head coach used to coach under Bellicheat, and may be losing his job anyway, and may not have a lot to lose if he "plays aggressively".....

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Post Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 12:55 pm 
 

And, there are point spreads. Can't forget about all those people betting on all these games...


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Post Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 3:41 pm 
 

Mikey, when you talk about Tony Homo and Favre laughing it up, you're right, but you're forgetting one small detail: no one has insulted them the way Brady and the Pats in general have been insulted.
Belichick will not leave NE. I've read several books on the guy, and I've followed him since WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY before he came here. He is totally, 100% obsessed with football and winning. He is NOT interested in "starting over" and building up a shit team into a champion.
You don't live here, so you don't know what the mentality is. I know people who would rip out their kids' kidneys and donate them if Billy needed one. He is without question THE most loved sports coach of ANY sport here, EVER. He knows it; he isn't going anywhere.
If teams didn't want the Pats to humiliate them with FU touchdowns, they should have shut their asses after the fine and draft pick penalization. But no, everyone had to run their mouths. Well, rest assured the Pats will take the price out of their hides and prides. No one's gonna get to Brady, and anyone who starts playing breakneck football will get his ass handed to him by the entire league. NO ONE in the league likes breakers; they never last long.


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Post Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 4:30 pm 
 

Lets see, the Pats legitimately got caught cheating and the rest of the league was pissed off about it and said as much. Now, supposedly as a response to this, the Patriots are trying to run the score up on everybody that they play and show everyone up.  Yet somehow, these very same teams that were already pissed about getting cheated and are now having the score run up on them are for some reason going to give a rats ass about whether some player whose is #54 on his teams depth chart smashes Brady's knees into 2012. I am clearly not getting it.


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Post Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 4:53 pm 
 

Breakneck players aren't tolerated because NO ONE wants to get hurt, or possibly have their career ended.  
Players get hurt, that's the game, but I can assure you no coach would ever tell his players to play to injure others, nor would he condone it. He'd be drummed out of the league, and so would the player.
Warren Sapp made a perfectly legal hit on a guy who wasn't paying attention a few years back, and put him in the hospital. Both of them were miles away from the action, and definitely out of the play. What got Sapp into deep water was his casual attitude toward the injury, not the hit itself. He didn't care one whit that the guy might never play again. He as much as said so in every interview. I watched him VERY closely after that, and lo and behold, people were beating the shit out of Sapp at every opportunity. Strangely enough, he changed his tune and the beatings stopped.
Yes, I'm sure every other team would breathe a sigh of relief if Brady got hurt, but I assure you, the player who deliberately tried to injure him would pay dearly, in more ways than one.


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Post Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 5:16 pm 
 

I can't wait for the game vs the Jets.

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Post Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 5:27 pm 
 

Deadlord39 wrote:Breakneck players aren't tolerated because NO ONE wants to get hurt, or possibly have their career ended.  
Players get hurt, that's the game, but I can assure you no coach would ever tell his players to play to injure others, nor would he condone it. He'd be drummed out of the league, and so would the player.
Warren Sapp made a perfectly legal hit on a guy who wasn't paying attention a few years back, and put him in the hospital. Both of them were miles away from the action, and definitely out of the play. What got Sapp into deep water was his casual attitude toward the injury, not the hit itself. He didn't care one whit that the guy might never play again. He as much as said so in every interview. I watched him VERY closely after that, and lo and behold, people were beating the shit out of Sapp at every opportunity. Strangely enough, he changed his tune and the beatings stopped.
Yes, I'm sure every other team would breathe a sigh of relief if Brady got hurt, but I assure you, the player who deliberately tried to injure him would pay dearly, in more ways than one.


You are right, NO ONE wants to get hurt, but then again NO ONE wants to get humiliated either, especially when the motivation behind the humliation was calling out the team humilating them for cheating. It works both ways.  You respect your opponents and they respect you.  You humiliate them and you open yourself to being retaliated against, its that simple.  I think it happens more than people realize.


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Post Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 6:49 pm 
 

Deadlord39 wrote:As an addendum: I hear a lot about how if Brady went down the team would fall apart. Has that not ALWAYS been the case with the Colts? Anyone even know who the Colts backup QB is? Do they even HAVE one?
Brady is so pissed off right now he'd play if he was missing a limb; I would be too if I had his ability and everyone in the league was claiming I was only doing well because of videotaping. Believe me, I know this team like the back of my hand and they are BULLSHIT that the league as a whole implied that they were not "the real deal" (the exact words Crayton used after they got shellacked). I have no probs at all with him being out there. It's a job. If they don't win the Lomby this year, so what, it was a good year and I enjoyed watching the games. In the meantime, if you play the Pats, best be ready to pay the piper.


I agree, and I think this is understated. Where would the Cowboys be if they lot their QB?  The Steelers?  The Packers? The Bengals (oh, wait, sorry, they'd still be terrible). And no one is arguing the Pats are the best team in the league right now (The Cowboys players to a man agreed after the game they lost).  But the childish antics of the head coach are uglifying what should be a great year for the Pats.  

Mike B.

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Post Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 7:04 pm 
 

Deadlord39 wrote:Mikey, when you talk about Tony Homo and Favre laughing it up, you're right, but you're forgetting one small detail: no one has insulted them the way Brady and the Pats in general have been insulted.
Belichick will not leave NE. I've read several books on the guy, and I've followed him since WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY before he came here. He is totally, 100% obsessed with football and winning. He is NOT interested in "starting over" and building up a shit team into a champion.
You don't live here, so you don't know what the mentality is. I know people who would rip out their kids' kidneys and donate them if Billy needed one. He is without question THE most loved sports coach of ANY sport here, EVER. He knows it; he isn't going anywhere.
If teams didn't want the Pats to humiliate them with FU touchdowns, they should have shut their asses after the fine and draft pick penalization. But no, everyone had to run their mouths. Well, rest assured the Pats will take the price out of their hides and prides. No one's gonna get to Brady, and anyone who starts playing breakneck football will get his ass handed to him by the entire league. NO ONE in the league likes breakers; they never last long.


Well it starts with the fact that the Pats WERE cheating. Now, anyone saying that's the only reason they've won so much the past few years is crazy or jealous.  Use the fact that fans and other teams are questioning you as a motivating factor?  Sure, it makes great bulletin board material.  But to use it to embarrass your oppoents?  Why?  What did Coach Gibbs and the Redskins have to do with Belicheat illegally taping practices?  It just looks all sorts of wrong is all I can say, and maybe a bit immature.

I never said Bellicheck would coach another team.  But retire on top?  Why not? He might not want the aggravation anymore.  Especially a couple years down the road.  As you said, I can't believe Bellicheat would want to coach a Brady-less Pats (whether he left by injury or retirement), and he's smart enough to see the writing on the wall at that point.

As for breakneck players....uh, you're wrong. The Cowboys have at least one...Roy Williams...that pays a fine about every other week for a busted limb, hit out of bounds, or unneccessary roughness late hit.  Hell he has an entire rule made just to police his horse collar tackles (like the one that broke TO's leg when he played for the Eagles).  As for the fines...if Roy cares he'd stop blowing people up, and he never has.  As for the rep....Roy LOVES it.  His entire game is built on scaring the hell out of WR's going over the middle, knowing he could give a crap if he knocks them unconcious or breaks a limb.  And I don't see anyone policing him either.  Honestly if he took out Brady, he'd get a fine and suspension, and come back not changing his game a whit, with the added rep of having took out one of the top QBs in the game (like he took out Kurt Warner for the season on a sack in 2002).  And I'm sure other teams in the NFL have a guy just like Roy.....in the tradition of the great Jack Tatum, there is always one guy here and there willing to take someone out to make a point.

Mike B.


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Post Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 7:48 pm 
 

Meh, no use debating this. That 4th trophy is gonna look SOOOOOOO good.


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