Pricing Ethics (split from Shady Dealers)
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Post Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 7:18 pm 
 

Sea-to-sky-games wrote:
This seems like strange reasoning to me and not one that has any explanatory power over human behavior. After all, it means all of us -- whether it is in rpgs at times, or buying food, or whatever -- go walking around with really no idea what things are worth to ourselves and we just fork out money like zombies.


I don't know how they do things up there in Canada but people in the US are notrious for pissing thier money away.  It's what defines us.  In regards to the rest of the nonsense that you just posted, I say its preposterous for you pass to judgement on those that you are deriding for passing judgement on others.  You know what they call that? Its called being a hypocrite.

  

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Post Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 7:41 pm 
 

This discussion seems to come up twice a year, when a noobie comes on the scene and thinks he knows how the RPG economy works. I am tired of raking Seesaw over the coals, so here is my advice: follow your business plan, buy up lots of rare items at high prices, and sell them for even higher prices. It's been SOOOOO successful in the past.


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Post Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 7:45 pm 
 

Deadlord39 wrote:This discussion seems to come up twice a year, when a noobie comes on the scene and thinks he knows how the RPG economy works. I am tired of raking Seesaw over the coals, so here is my advice: follow your business plan, buy up lots of rare items at high prices, and sell them for even higher prices. It's been SOOOOO successful in the past.

Considering the fact that he  teetered back and forth about 4 times now on what he thinks and how he actually acts, I think Seesaw is the perfect name for him. Personally I think he is just a forum troll here to do nothing other than piss people off and try to start fights.  He should from now on  be treated just like every other forum troll and just flat out ignored by everyone.

  


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Post Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 7:59 pm 
 

This discussion seems to come up twice a year, when a noobie comes on the scene and thinks he knows how the RPG economy works. I am tired of raking Seesaw over the coals, so here is my advice: follow your business plan, buy up lots of rare items at high prices, and sell them for even higher prices. It's been SOOOOO successful in the past.


Actually, what this discussion seems to indicate is that there appears some hostility to new voices. I've never belittled anyone nor spoken in an adversarial manner... yet this is precisely what I've encountered from some others (to put in mildly). Is this how all "newbies" are treated?

Moreover, I'm far from a "newbie" as I've been collecting tsr material for well over a decade and have lurked on this forum for awhile. I certainly don't run any business. But I am doing my graduate degree in economics, so I'd like to think I have some vague understanding of how economies work. But even so, surely all of is entirely irrelevant.

After all, the one and only thing I've "contended" is that valuations are entirely subjective, which is what anyone without any background in any rpg or "rpg economics" can firmly postulate and defend. It is certainly not any novel idea or concept... except perhaps in this forum.

  


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Post Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 8:13 pm 
 

Sea-to-sky-games wrote:
Actually, what this discussion seems to indicate is that there appears some hostility to new voices. I've never belittled anyone nor spoken in an adversarial manner... yet this is precisely what I've encountered from some others (to put in mildly). Is this how all "newbies" are treated?

Moreover, I'm far from a "newbie" as I've been collecting tsr material for well over a decade and have lurked on this forum for awhile. I certainly don't run any business. But I am doing my graduate degree in economics, so I'd like to think I have some vague understanding of how economies work. But even so, surely all of is entirely irrelevant.

After all, the one and only thing I've "contended" is that valuations are entirely subjective, which is what anyone without any background in any rpg or "rpg economics" can firmly postulate and defend. It is certainly not any novel idea or concept... except perhaps in this forum.


Rather than run your mouth on and on about everything, how about proving it.  You speak a lot and yet you say absolutely nothing.  You have yet to post anything on this forum that says really anything other than "I am right and you are wrong". When you are provided with facts that counter your mouthy claims, you either say "despite what you say you are still wrong" or you flat out ignore it.   Also, if you were so firmly in belief of what you write here about knowing it all, how about putting some of that know it allness into some action.  At least the ass holes who came here before telling everyone that they were wrong had the guts to try and back it up with some actions and with their checkbooks.  In the end they all ended up in the I know everything and you all know nothing scrap heap, but at least that had the balls to try and act on it, unlike yourself.  Like I said above, you are here as nothing morew than a forum troll with nothing better to do then to try and stir up some trouble.

  

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Post Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 8:48 pm 
 

Now on page 5 and the point is still missed :cry:


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Post Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 8:55 pm 
 

thehiddenone wrote:Considering the fact that he  teetered back and forth about 4 times now on what he thinks and how he actually acts, I think Seesaw is the perfect name for him. Personally I think he is just a forum troll here to do nothing other than piss people off and try to start fights.  He should from now on  be treated just like every other forum troll and just flat out ignored by everyone.


All SeaTSky has basically said in his many posts is that pricing is subjective.  I fail to see how that should generate the bile, nastiness and insults I've seen the last few days.  Man, I've been on this forum for years, and I know the initiation ceremony can be a little rough for those that start posting for the first time, but this is flat out ridiculous.  I've met STS in person, done business with him, and I can confirm he's both a  long time lurker, a D&D guy,  and definitely not a troll.  Cmon guys there is absolutely no right or wrong answers here, it's OPINIONS.     STS thinks pricing is subjective and whatever someone wants to pay for items is fine, a lot of you think that what you consider excessive pricing is unethical. I can see both sides.  
     Unfortunately there are still those on these boards that refuse to recognize reselling of used items as a legitimate business, for whatever misguided and nostalgic reasons, and perhaps hold on to ideals in regard to RPG collectibles far longer than they should.  They get angrier at a reseller gouging prices on an H1 than the multi-national bad guys raping us everyday at the gas pump.  Hey, I understand, there is a lot of emotion invested in those funny looking pieces of paper.  And sure guys who make it their specialty to prey on newbies, the uneducated, the uninitiated, the unenlightened, are scum sucking pigs.  But man, when did we start ripping people for simply giving their opinions and daring to back them up with further posts?
  I'm going to have to say this, IT'S A BUSINESS NOW.  If Seller Dumfuk wants to charge 10k for a Lost Tamoachoan, that's between him and any moron who is not fond of his money willing to pay that ludicrous amount.  Sure Seller Dumfuck is an opportunistic ass...but that's the way it is.  I was offered two tickets to the Dallas Mavericks game the other night, for face value.....$140 not included parking.  You've got to be kidding me.  and those aren't even particularly good tickets.  I have a lawyer friend in LA that was once gifted floor seats to the Lakers after he won a big case...face value $2200 a ticket...for one game.  That billionaire owners of sports franchises overcharge for sporting events and laugh their rich asses to the bank is far, far more an ethical and moral crime than some moron trying to break the bank on a D&D rarity.  Please put the picture in perspective guys.  All STS is arguing is that an asshole seller can charge stupid prices if some moron is willing to pay those stupid prices.  Yet half of us here wouldn't bat an eye overpaying to see our favorite sports team in a playoff game or rock band in a front row seat.  Give a guy a break.

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Post Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 8:55 pm 
 

Kosh Vorlontay wrote:Now on page 5 and the point is still missed :cry:


What is the point then since it doesn't seem anyone else gets it?

  


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Post Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 9:01 pm 
 

Badmike wrote:
All SeaTSky has basically said in his many posts is that pricing is subjective.

Mike B.


No that is not all he has said. You must have missed the posts were he said that how dare anyone act surprised and laugh that some stupid ass buyer paid far and above the going rate for an item.  He has also defended the practices of just about every shady seller listed on this thread. I fail to see how because you have met this guy that it makes him any better than sellers like creep1962 and titan games. His philosophy about the economics of these sellers is the exact same yet no one until this guy has yet to defend it.  Why now? Because you met him person, then he must be a swell guy?  I don't buy it.

  

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Post Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 9:08 pm 
 

thehiddenone wrote:
No that is not all he has said. You must have missed the posts were he said that how dare anyone act surprised and laugh that some stupid ass buyer paid far and above the going rate for an item.  He has also defended the practices of just about every shady seller listed on this thread. I fail to see how because you have met this guy that it makes him any better than sellers like creep1962 and titan games. His philosophy about the economics of these sellers is the exact same yet no one until this guy has yet to defend it.  Why now? Because you met him person, then he must be a swell guy?  I don't buy it.



Well, conversely, I've never met you and I'm already fairly certain you're a schmuck.  

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Post Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 9:14 pm 
 

Badmike wrote:

Well, conversely, I've never met you and I'm already fairly certain you're a schmuck.  

Mike B.


Both me and vallhalla games right.  Or did you already forget some of the things that you have written previously about them?

  

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Post Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 9:19 pm 
 

thehiddenone wrote:
What is the point then since it doesn't seem anyone else gets it?


The point is...Who Gives A Shit!

Like I said above:
Kosh Vorlontay wrote:So get it while you can, make a profit while you can, collect it while you can and in the end just bury it with you when you go. At least then in 200+ years when the new civilizations dig you up (like the Egyptians of old) you will be worth more due to the size of your collection.


The people who have the money set the tone for the market, those who don't just shake there fists at the haves and bitch about being a have not.

In the end just enjoy what you have, not what you don't have.

PS Can you say PDF? (Just don't get caught selling it on eBay and get caught from the forum members here, thats what we call a lose-lose situation)


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Post Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 9:29 pm 
 

Sea-to-sky-games wrote:I doubt it. Besides, the market is amoral. It has nothing to do with ethics or morality.

(Ok, I admit I skimmed the next four pages.  I'm pretty sure it was random back-and-forth bickering with some solid points in between. ;))

The market is amoral.  The D&D collecting community is not.  That's the difference.  We try our best to protect our own, as well as others newly interested in the hobby.  Period, end of story.  

Tsojconth has been trending upward this year, but it is simply not worth almost twice last year's valuation.  :wink:

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Post Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 9:34 pm 
 

thehiddenone wrote:
Both me and vallhalla games right.  Or did you already forget some of the things that you have written previously about them?


Valhalla Games, Creepy and Titan are all retailers.  They are welcome to post here and refute or condone their various policies (some have done this to varying degrees of success).  STS is an individual, a collector/gamer who has posted an opinion to this forum.  We may agree or disagree, and as a matter of fact despite what you think (calling him a "forum troll") a few others here have also given similar opinions.  Whether or not I agree with STS or any other poster, they are entitled to their opinon on a subject without being summarly bashed and dismissed as a "troll" when all they have done is offer an alternate opinion.  And despite comparing him to Creepy, (a insult of the highest order), he did not post here boasting of changing the entire paradigm of game selling since he is a genius and the rest of us just aren't with the program (as Creepy did).  
  And my opinion of  the gouging seller is well known.  Personally, I think they are taking advantage of the weak in most cases, not a crime but certainly ethically wrong.  But in the long run they make my job and others like me a lot easier.  And in the end they make themselves and their business a lot more unappealing.  I don't see any dichotomy in disliking them yet letting the clueless newbie run wild and overpay if he has a mind to.  
 By saying I've met STS, I merely wanted to get across the point he's not some anonymous evil shill for overpricing retailers, he's simply one of us with a separate opinion.

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Post Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 9:45 pm 
 

Badmike wrote:Well, conversely, I've never met you and I'm already fairly certain you're a schmuck.  


Mike,  please don't sink the discussion down to name calling.  Especially after your last post tried to stop this behaviour.  I know you are better than this  :wink:

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Post Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 9:48 pm 
 

deimos3428 wrote:
(Ok, I admit I skimmed the next four pages.  I'm pretty sure it was random back-and-forth bickering with some solid points in between. ;))

The market is amoral.  The D&D collecting community is not.  That's the difference.  We try our best to protect our own, as well as others newly interested in the hobby.  Period, end of story.  

Tsojconth has been trending upward this year, but it is simply not worth almost twice last year's valuation.  :wink:




I agree, and I will provide that "protection" if for no other reason than in the long run a vibrant, honest community helps my business also.  But let's face it, Cougar has done more cumulative damage to the gamer community than any number of overchargers lumped together, and he runs free as the wind (although an interesting segment of the community has jumped up to warn potential victims of his sneakiness).  But I still fail to see how bashing STS helps one singel newbie not overpay for a woodgrain when he wants that woodgrain come hell or high water.

  Before I was Badmike the big bad reseller  :wink: , I sold a few things on the old AOL forums.  And like probably a lot of us, I didnt' know my way around at first.  And like more than a few of us, I got basically undressed and molested on my first ebay trade/sale. I can remember it to this day, it was an R1 Aid of Falx for an FR5 Savage Frontier and a bit of cash ($10 maybe).  And yes I was the one trading the R1 for the fairly common module I get around 10 bucks for now on ebay.  And not even an ounce of remorse...the seller immediately threw the R1 into his store for $100 after he received it. So 15 years ago I got screwed by an unethical seller, and I learned a lesson. It's not my job to take every newbie by the hand and patiently explain to them that no, that copy of B1 is NOT that hard to find and will certainly command less than $50 the next time it's up for auction/sale.  Sometimes you just gotta stick your hand in the fire, get burned, and move on.

  And, PS, I NEVER did business with that reseller again, and he was quite a fixture on the AOL forums for many years.  So in the long run all he did was deprive himself of many hundreds (if not thousands) of dollars I spent the next few years while accumulating my collection.  Guys like Creepy and Titan and Valhalla, I believe, suffer the same fate in the end.



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Post Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 9:52 pm 
 

improvstone wrote:
Mike,  please don't sink the discussion down to name calling.  Especially after your last post tried to stop this behaviour.  I know you are better than this  :wink:


Actually I was trying to be ironic...but re-reading I see that didn't come out that way.  Sometimes what we post doesn't have the same tone as if we had said it.  I apologize if it sounded overly insulting.   :oops:   But comparing STS to Creep was a low, low blow.......I didn't really feel that was called for, and STS certainly didn't deserve being called a forum troll for simply stating his opinion.  But I do apologize for the over reaction.

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Post Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 9:58 pm 
 

Badmike wrote:Unfortunately there are still those on these boards that refuse to recognize reselling of used items as a legitimate business, for whatever misguided and nostalgic reasons, and perhaps hold on to ideals in regard to RPG collectibles far longer than they should.  They get angrier at a reseller gouging prices on an H1 than the multi-national bad guys raping us everyday at the gas pump.  


Nope. I definitely get angrier at the pricing of oil, the taxes the government makes from petrol and the delay in research into cleaner energy sources. Don't get me started on how we are killing the planet we live on.

The beauty of the site is the ability for any buyer to come here first, read about the various sellers and make their own minds up about their practices.  I am sure cougie, creep, titan etc would love to not have this site here.  Too bad. We are here and I encourage anyone who has had bad or good experiences with a seller to list them here.  

With regard to the H1 it wasn't the price gouging that pissed me off.  It was the (unsuccessful) attempt to try and corner the market.

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Post Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 10:02 pm 
 

Badmike wrote:I still fail to see how bashing STS helps one singel newbie not overpay for a woodgrain when he wants that woodgrain come hell or high water.

Oh, sorry Mike.  I missed that bit and don't condone bashing people unless I thought of it first.  (I didn't read about four pages, remember?) :)

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Post Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 10:06 pm 
 

Badmike wrote:

Actually I was trying to be ironic...but re-reading I see that didn't come out that way.  Sometimes what we post doesn't have the same tone as if we had said it.  I apologize if it sounded overly insulting.   :oops:   But comparing STS to Creep was a low, low blow.......I didn't really feel that was called for, and STS certainly didn't deserve being called a forum troll for simply stating his opinion.  But I do apologize for the over reaction.

Mike B.




.. we should all remember it is the new year.  Have some beers and just chill  8)



I do agree with you on that point.  To me it is quite simple. If someone wants to try and sell an item for an over inflated price go for it.  Good luck to you!  However, don't be surprised if someone points out that you are trying to rip people off.  You want to sell on the internet then you have to come to realise that the internet is a great way to disseminate information  (both good and bad) to a large number of people very quickly.



Plus I am glad we have buyers that look out for other buyers on ebay.  Ebay certainly don't do enough to protect either buyer or seller.  The feedback system is a joke.  The number of fake auctions and second chance offers I have seen because of ebay is a sad joke. :evil:

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