Blackmoor wrote:RPG collectables has very few deep pocketed collectors; it is a very poor choice for investors.  It may be a better investment at some time in the future but probably not.  For investments to work you require sustained growth.  There is just not enough big spenders to soak up $2000.00 TSOJ's for very long.  Maybe some day that $100.00 TSOJ will be available.

That is a really good point that I've been thinking about for a while.  The upward trend that we had been witnessing the past couple years on the holy grails took a downward trend as soon as some of the big pockets pulled out of the hobby (no need to name names, we know who they are   ), and new big pocketed collectors have not appeared in sufficient numbers to replace them.  We are such a niche hobby that just a half-dozen big collectors pulling out of the active market will have a diminishing trend on big-ticket item prices, while the influx of a few David Van Wies (remember his White Box test?) sends big-ticket stuff way high, way fast.  
Long term in our lifetimes, I think most items will continue to push slowly higher as more Gen-Xers achieve higher income and nostalgia levels.  And then when their kids leave the nest, well, I expect a big price jump in about 20 years.  I just read an article about the collectible train market that is experiencing big growth now since most of the collectors are guys in their 50's and 60's with nice incomes and no kids to spend their money on anymore.  But after they die, the hobby may go with them.  So, yeah, in 70 years, a Tsoj or PotVQ may go for $10 after all.  None of us will probably be around to see it however.

VermilionFire wrote:A gaming item is much more than an object of aesthetic nostalgia.  It can be played.  Boardgames and miniatures are perhaps even better examples of this since they are tactile as well.  Modules tell a story, and human beings have pined for great stories since the advent of spoken language.

This is very true, I spent $175.00 on a game once (Talisman with two expansions if you must know) and I play it all the time!!  I even considered updating some of the super rares like POVQ and Dwarven Glory to 3.5 rules so a new generation could enjoy them.

What he said.

Interesting points from all here.

I believe the future of RPGs has more to do with playability - to - price value than anything. How many 3.0-3.5 players even bother with 1st and 2nd edition stuff when WotC is pushing out more products month after month than TSR ever did? Not to mention DMs converting 1st/2nd edition modules to 3.0 status. Why do that when WotC otr other sanctioned companies are just coverting it already and producing it as there own new product (yah, I know WotC own the rights to it).

I know this to be true for when I recently went to a game store and saw the PBH 2 for the 3.0 system with practically the same cover art as the 1st edition. I told the store operator (maybe 20 years of age) that it was basically just a work over of the 1st edition cover and he gave me the 'deer in the headlights' look. When I pointed his computer to the Acaeum and showed him he could not believe it.

The thing is that the old stuff for the most part is not 'playable' any more with the current market of 3.5 stuff. Only us old timers use it and value it more than the current 3.5 players. If WotC still produced 1st/2nd edition D&D the the old TSR stuff would sky rocket in price.

Just as the CCG market is so sustainable because of this fact. Take MtG, how many of the first card sets produced cannot be used in competition today? Yu-Gi-Oh? LotR? These games can still use the old stuff along with the new because the format has not changed.

So the value of 1st/2nd edition D&D is finite/tied to the current collecting community (ie us old timers). In the next 20-30 years we will pass on and our children will inherit our stuff. They will be playing the current incarnation of D&D (current growth rate will put it at 8.5-9.0) and look at our stuff as Junk. There will be a few 2nd editon players still alive and will pick up this junk for a few pennies or nickles and then they will die off. !st and 2nd edition will be in the grave along with there owners and it will become just a memory or something to be viewed in a museum.

So who cares if noobies come along and pay an ass load for something that in the next few decades will only be worth worm food?! You're better off making PDFs of it all and selling it back to recoup your money (that is what I decided). You will still have it in the same condition as when you bought it. You can print as many playing copies you want and the shelf/room space you save will be better used for other things (like expanding families, college books or whatever)

For me it is frustrating to not be able to get an item due to the noobie or reseller who has the money to pay the outrageous amount that it gets to. It's especially frustrating trying to get something only to be betten buy a deep pocketted reseller. Either way you will have to pay a premium for an item due to these two individual types of buyers, plain and simple.

So get it while you can, make a profit while you can, collect it while you can and in the end just bury it with you when you go. At least then in 200+ years when the new civilizations dig you up (like the Egyptians of old) you will be worth more due to the size of your collection.  

Sea-to-sky-games wrote:
This seems like strange reasoning to me and not one that has any explanatory power over human behavior. After all, it means all of us -- whether it is in rpgs at times, or buying food, or whatever -- go walking around with really no idea what things are worth to ourselves and we just fork out money like zombies.

I don't know how they do things up there in Canada but people in the US are notrious for pissing thier money away.  It's what defines us.  In regards to the rest of the nonsense that you just posted, I say its preposterous for you pass to judgement on those that you are deriding for passing judgement on others.  You know what they call that? Its called being a hypocrite.

Deadlord39 wrote:This discussion seems to come up twice a year, when a noobie comes on the scene and thinks he knows how the RPG economy works. I am tired of raking Seesaw over the coals, so here is my advice: follow your business plan, buy up lots of rare items at high prices, and sell them for even higher prices. It's been SOOOOO successful in the past.

Considering the fact that he  teetered back and forth about 4 times now on what he thinks and how he actually acts, I think Seesaw is the perfect name for him. Personally I think he is just a forum troll here to do nothing other than piss people off and try to start fights.  He should from now on  be treated just like every other forum troll and just flat out ignored by everyone.

Sea-to-sky-games wrote:
Actually, what this discussion seems to indicate is that there appears some hostility to new voices. I've never belittled anyone nor spoken in an adversarial manner... yet this is precisely what I've encountered from some others (to put in mildly). Is this how all "newbies" are treated?

Moreover, I'm far from a "newbie" as I've been collecting tsr material for well over a decade and have lurked on this forum for awhile. I certainly don't run any business. But I am doing my graduate degree in economics, so I'd like to think I have some vague understanding of how economies work. But even so, surely all of is entirely irrelevant.

After all, the one and only thing I've "contended" is that valuations are entirely subjective, which is what anyone without any background in any rpg or "rpg economics" can firmly postulate and defend. It is certainly not any novel idea or concept... except perhaps in this forum.

Rather than run your mouth on and on about everything, how about proving it.  You speak a lot and yet you say absolutely nothing.  You have yet to post anything on this forum that says really anything other than "I am right and you are wrong". When you are provided with facts that counter your mouthy claims, you either say "despite what you say you are still wrong" or you flat out ignore it.   Also, if you were so firmly in belief of what you write here about knowing it all, how about putting some of that know it allness into some action.  At least the ass holes who came here before telling everyone that they were wrong had the guts to try and back it up with some actions and with their checkbooks.  In the end they all ended up in the I know everything and you all know nothing scrap heap, but at least that had the balls to try and act on it, unlike yourself.  Like I said above, you are here as nothing morew than a forum troll with nothing better to do then to try and stir up some trouble.

thehiddenone wrote:Considering the fact that he  teetered back and forth about 4 times now on what he thinks and how he actually acts, I think Seesaw is the perfect name for him. Personally I think he is just a forum troll here to do nothing other than piss people off and try to start fights.  He should from now on  be treated just like every other forum troll and just flat out ignored by everyone.

All SeaTSky has basically said in his many posts is that pricing is subjective.  I fail to see how that should generate the bile, nastiness and insults I've seen the last few days.  Man, I've been on this forum for years, and I know the initiation ceremony can be a little rough for those that start posting for the first time, but this is flat out ridiculous.  I've met STS in person, done business with him, and I can confirm he's both a  long time lurker, a D&D guy,  and definitely not a troll.  Cmon guys there is absolutely no right or wrong answers here, it's OPINIONS.     STS thinks pricing is subjective and whatever someone wants to pay for items is fine, a lot of you think that what you consider excessive pricing is unethical. I can see both sides.  
     Unfortunately there are still those on these boards that refuse to recognize reselling of used items as a legitimate business, for whatever misguided and nostalgic reasons, and perhaps hold on to ideals in regard to RPG collectibles far longer than they should.  They get angrier at a reseller gouging prices on an H1 than the multi-national bad guys raping us everyday at the gas pump.  Hey, I understand, there is a lot of emotion invested in those funny looking pieces of paper.  And sure guys who make it their specialty to prey on newbies, the uneducated, the uninitiated, the unenlightened, are scum sucking pigs.  But man, when did we start ripping people for simply giving their opinions and daring to back them up with further posts?
  I'm going to have to say this, IT'S A BUSINESS NOW.  If Seller Dumfuk wants to charge 10k for a Lost Tamoachoan, that's between him and any moron who is not fond of his money willing to pay that ludicrous amount.  Sure Seller Dumfuck is an opportunistic ass...but that's the way it is.  I was offered two tickets to the Dallas Mavericks game the other night, for face value.....$140 not included parking.  You've got to be kidding me.  and those aren't even particularly good tickets.  I have a lawyer friend in LA that was once gifted floor seats to the Lakers after he won a big case...face value $2200 a ticket...for one game.  That billionaire owners of sports franchises overcharge for sporting events and laugh their rich asses to the bank is far, far more an ethical and moral crime than some moron trying to break the bank on a D&D rarity.  Please put the picture in perspective guys.  All STS is arguing is that an asshole seller can charge stupid prices if some moron is willing to pay those stupid prices.  Yet half of us here wouldn't bat an eye overpaying to see our favorite sports team in a playoff game or rock band in a front row seat.  Give a guy a break.

Mike B.

Badmike wrote:
All SeaTSky has basically said in his many posts is that pricing is subjective.

Mike B.

No that is not all he has said. You must have missed the posts were he said that how dare anyone act surprised and laugh that some stupid ass buyer paid far and above the going rate for an item.  He has also defended the practices of just about every shady seller listed on this thread. I fail to see how because you have met this guy that it makes him any better than sellers like creep1962 and titan games. His philosophy about the economics of these sellers is the exact same yet no one until this guy has yet to defend it.  Why now? Because you met him person, then he must be a swell guy?  I don't buy it.