Pricing Ethics (split from Shady Dealers)
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Post Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 8:39 pm 
 

Price shifts do not include noobies buying $2,000 Tsojs. They include items which show an up/down trend over a period of time, involving multiple sales of the same or similar items.
There really is no debate here. A Tsoj (seems to be the running example) is worth $800-$1,200, in nice shape. Plain and simple. If someone pays $1,300 for it, they overpaid. Why do I say this? Because I (and several others here) have seen many copies bought and sold, and that is the realistic range. If you sell one and get $1,800 for it, congrats, you made out and someone took a hard greenie up the brown onion. If ten of them sell for $1,800, to KNOWLEDGEABLE BUYERS, it IS worth $1,800. Plain and simple.
Seesaw, everyone is certainly entitled to their own view, but this forum is populated largely by collectors. While we do have individuals with questionable collecting ethics, by and large the majority of people here are in it for the joy of ownership. If you try to defend a predatory or profiteer attitude here, you will no doubt catch a shitload of flak.


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Post Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 8:40 pm 
 

My bad: I am andrewlloyd311lla (I didn't get to pick my name?!?!).

  


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Post Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 8:42 pm 
 

If ten of them sell for $1,800, to KNOWLEDGEABLE BUYERS, it IS worth $1,800. Plain and simple.


Don't you mean knowledgeable investors?

  


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Post Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 8:44 pm 
 

nevcoup wrote:My bad: I am andrewlloyd311lla (I didn't get to pick my name?!?!).




http://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.d ... loyd311lla



*scratches head*



Feedback score of 56, 54 of which came in the last 2 months? Not exactly a huge history there for you, is it?


Last edited by thehiddenone on Fri Jan 05, 2007 8:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
  


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Post Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 8:45 pm 
 

I doubt it. Besides, the market is amoral. It has nothing to do with ethics or morality.


Markets are neither moral or amoral.  Business practices, however, can be.  There's no law that says you can't charge what you want in a market as long as you don't conspire with the other sellers in the market to artificially raise the prices.  Hardly applies to this market.  You can make the argument about charging whatever price you want as fair and ethical but it will ultimately be the buyer who determines that for you.

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Post Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 8:45 pm 
 

Sea-to-sky-games wrote:
Don't you mean knowledgeable investors?


No, I am sure he meant buyers.

  


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Post Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 8:47 pm 
 

A Tsoj (seems to be the running example) is worth $800-$1,200, in nice shape. Plain and simple. If someone pays $1,300 for it, they overpaid.


.. if they wish to resell it and resell it tomorrow, then I perfectly agree with this statement.

Moreover, if he DID pay $1,300 it means that he probably won the auction (perhaps laughing that he got it so cheaply) while everyone else passed up perhaps a once in a year opportunity to get their hands on it!

  


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Post Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 8:47 pm 
 

Sea-to-sky-games wrote:
.. if they wish to resell it and resell it tomorrow, then I perfectly agree with this statement.

Moreover, if he DID pay $1,300 it means that he probably won the auction (perhaps laughing that he got it so cheaply) while everyone else passed up perhaps a once in a year opportunity to get their hands on it!


Well, there have been about 7 that have sold in the 365 days so maybe he is on to something.

  


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Post Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 8:49 pm 
 

Markets are neither moral or amoral.


So then by definition they're immoral?  :wink:

  


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Post Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 8:52 pm 
 

Christ, reading throught this thread reminds me of creep1962 all over again. :roll:   Someone else come along to tell everyone else that they have absolutely no idea what they are talking about despite the fact that the collecting experience of the folks on this site averages about 10 to 12 years. You would think that we know at least a little something about this hobby. :roll:  :roll:  :roll:


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Post Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 8:53 pm 
 

So then by definition they're immoral?
 

Thanks.  Now I have to get the dictionary out :roll:

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Post Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 8:56 pm 
 

Sea-to-sky-games wrote:
.. if they wish to resell it and resell it tomorrow, then I perfectly agree with this statement.

Moreover, if he DID pay $1,300 it means that he probably won the auction (perhaps laughing that he got it so cheaply) while everyone else passed up perhaps a once in a year opportunity to get their hands on it!


Let me guess, you are sitting on about 5 of these babies and you are getting to sell them off, right.  "Come one, come all be sure to invest all of your money into my collection and laugh all the way home as you effectively steal these things away from me for a low ball price of $1600."  Right....


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Post Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 8:58 pm 
 

Deadlord39 wrote:Price shifts do not include noobies buying $2,000 Tsojs. They include items which show an up/down trend over a period of time, involving multiple sales of the same or similar items.
There really is no debate here. A Tsoj (seems to be the running example) is worth $800-$1,200, in nice shape. Plain and simple. If someone pays $1,300 for it, they overpaid. Why do I say this? Because I (and several others here) have seen many copies bought and sold, and that is the realistic range. If you sell one and get $1,800 for it, congrats, you made out and someone took a hard greenie up the brown onion. If ten of them sell for $1,800, to KNOWLEDGEABLE BUYERS, it IS worth $1,800. Plain and simple.


Then you are mistaken about the very principles by which collectible markets operate. You load your argument with a spurious distinction between "newbie" and "KNOWLEDGABLE BUYERS." By your reasoning at the beginning of your comment, any knowledgable buyer would buy within "true" range because, being "knowledgable," they would not overpay. If this is the case, then the market just would not fluctuate because, as you say, the market only changes when many knowledgable buyers overpay (which, OF COURSE, wouldn't happen!). If the market worked according to your reasoning the going Tsoj price in 20 years would be "$800-$1,200, in nice shape. Plain and simple." Also, by your reasoning, past rates for Keep on the Borderlands would remain as they were 6 years ago. Logic, experience, and the Acaeum article on the D&D collectible market suggest otherwise.

Again (as this SEEMS to have been overlooked), I am not saying these dealers are not shady (sorry for the double negative). I am making a simple point about collectible markets:

Values are set by buyers in such markets.
If buyers drink the magic Koolaide and pay very high prices for a particular item for a while (whether "newbie" or not) then that is the going rate (not the true price, just the going rate). Sellers are prone to push for this by pricing items higher than book, but it is up to buyers to buy or not.

  


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Post Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 9:00 pm 
 

Markets are neither moral or amoral


Should say markets are amoral, meaning they are neither moral or immoral :oops:

Dictionaries are great things. :idea:

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Post Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 9:01 pm 
 

Let me guess, you are sitting on about 5 of these babies and you are getting to sell them off, right.  "Come one, come all be sure to invest all of your money into my collection and laugh all the way home as you effectively steal these things away from me for a low ball price of $1600."  Right....


I wish! Frankly, I would never pay more than $100 for one of them. If I paid a bit more, then it would be only to turn it over quickly on eBay and make a profit.

You guys to an excellent job -- as if you guys don't get enough of praise around here. I don't know what makes you think I would feel the opposite.

  


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Post Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 9:08 pm 
 

nevcoup wrote:

Then you are mistaken about the very principles by which collectible markets operate. You load your argument with a spurious distinction between "newbie" and "KNOWLEDGABLE BUYERS." By your reasoning at the beginning of your comment, any knowledgable buyer would buy within "true" range because, being "knowledgable," they would not overpay. If this is the case, then the market just would not fluctuate because, as you say, the market only changes when many knowledgable buyers overpay (which, OF COURSE, wouldn't happen!). If the market worked according to your reasoning the going Tsoj price in 20 years would be "$800-$1,200, in nice shape. Plain and simple." Also, by your reasoning, past rates for Keep on the Borderlands would remain as they were 6 years ago. Logic, experience, and the Acaeum article on the D&D collectible market suggest otherwise.

Again (as this SEEMS to have been overlooked), I am not saying these dealers are not shady (sorry for the double negative). I am making a simple point about collectible markets:

Values are set by buyers in such markets.
If buyers drink the magic Koolaide and pay very high prices for a particular item for a while (whether "newbie" or not) then that is the going rate (not the true price, just the going rate). Sellers are prone to push for this by pricing items higher than book, but it is up to buyers to buy or not.




I think that you are clearly missing the point. DL39 here has been in this game for a long time....a long time.  He has seen this stuff(and by stuff I am being specific to D&D stuff as it in itself is unique to anything else) and knows how things go.   uneducated buyers come around every now and then and jack the price of an item or a few items up and then they disappear. i.e the $1895 Tsojconth guy:



http://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.d ... =mark11777



He has purchased exactly 3 items since he paid $1895 for that Tsojconth of which at most 1 was for a D&D item(s).  I am not sure if we should be letting a buyer such as this determine what the market value of these items all by themselves. :?


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Post Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 9:17 pm 
 

Sea-to-sky-games wrote:I wish! Frankly, I would never pay more than $100 for one of them. If I paid a bit more, then it would be only to turn it over quickly on eBay and make a profit.

You guys to an excellent job -- as if you guys don't get enough of praise around here. I don't know what makes you think I would feel the opposite.

I don't get it.  Didn't ealier in this thread several times say that they are worth at least $1895?  i.e:
Sea-to-sky-games wrote:Someone else remarked that a bidder paid "too much" for a Tsoj, saying they bid far more than what it is "worth". The module is "worth" whatever someone paid for it. Period.
Sea-to-sky-games wrote:If I'm a buyer, then its real value is (at least) the amount of money I pay for it
Sea-to-sky-games wrote:Unless you qualify "worth" by saying something like "assigned worth held by most people who collect TSR goodies", "worth" is precisely what one person is willing to pay for it. Moreover, even if one qualified such a statement, why would firms wish to price in this manner? It seems only effecient that they sell the items to those who value the item the most.

Seems to me that you are contradicting yourself quite badly here. I mean, I can be dumb sometimes, but if I can pick up and item for a measly $1300 and turn it over into a sale that nets me a guaranteed profit of at least $400, I am taking it.  

Unless of course, that just because I am saying it will guarantee me a profit of $400 really doesn't mean that I mean it.


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Post Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 9:23 pm 
 

I am not arguing that wild price fluctuations occur, nor that they are frustrating. I am saying the exact opposite. I'll tr to explain, as I have been both both ends of this dynamic in other collectibles:

I began collecting silver coins (quarters, dimes, etc...) in the 70's. I used my lawn mowing money to do this. Unfortunately, I was buying these coins during the time that the Hunt brothers had the silver market cornered, and had run silver up to 40-50 an ounce. One year later the price plummeted to around 5 an ounce. One lesson learned (shady people profit on collectibles). I collected baseball cards for over 20 years and saw both ups and downs. I have bought high, bought low, and occasionally sold when high and when low. My point, one last time, is that the very idea of "true price" in a collectible market is mistaken. If 100,000 former players get nostalgic about their youth this year, then prices will soar. If as few as 1,000 collectors lose interest this year, then prices drop. So, which is the "true price?" The obvious answer is (I guess) "They all are, for their time." I would agree with this because it highlights the fact that prices change in collectible markets, and the way they change is through buyers.

I already said that I am new to this. Indeed, I'm really only trying to relive my youth (and revolting againt 3.0/3.5!!!) by purchasing these items. However, this IS a collectible market, and collectible markets operate according to the same principles. Some folks here seem to be acting as though the prices of modules were regulated by the FCC...

  


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Post Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 9:31 pm 
 

nevcoup wrote:I am not arguing that wild price fluctuations occur, nor that they are frustrating. I am saying the exact opposite. I'll tr to explain, as I have been both both ends of this dynamic in other collectibles:

I began collecting silver coins (quarters, dimes, etc...) in the 70's. I used my lawn mowing money to do this. Unfortunately, I was buying these coins during the time that the Hunt brothers had the silver market cornered, and had run silver up to 40-50 an ounce. One year later the price plummeted to around 5 an ounce. One lesson learned (shady people profit on collectibles). I collected baseball cards for over 20 years and saw both ups and downs. I have bought high, bought low, and occasionally sold when high and when low. My point, one last time, is that the very idea of "true price" in a collectible market is mistaken. If 100,000 former players get nostalgic about their youth this year, then prices will soar. If as few as 1,000 collectors lose interest this year, then prices drop. So, which is the "true price?" The obvious answer is (I guess) "They all are, for their time." I would agree with this because it highlights the fact that prices change in collectible markets, and the way they change is through buyers.

I already said that I am new to this. Indeed, I'm really only trying to relive my youth (and revolting againt 3.0/3.5!!!) by purchasing these items. However, this IS a collectible market, and collectible markets operate according to the same principles. Some folks here seem to be acting as though the prices of modules were regulated by the FCC...


The problem is, and you may find this out over time, the D&D market is unique from any of the larger collectible markets.  This is due in part to the niche market that actually collects it.  D&D even in its heyday back in the late 70's and early 80's could not and would not come anywhere close in potential volume of things that most other people collect.  This is why you see less eratic buying prices/selling prices.  Occasionally something comes up that raises some eyebrows and 99 times out 100 its either a buyer new to Ebay or one with very little or no D&D buying activity.  A large majority of the folks who are going to collect D&D stuff already do so or have done so and are gone.  That may sound like a crazy statement until you realize just how small the potential buying base is.  Ebay has brought out a vast majority of these people over the last 8 years or so.


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Post Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 9:34 pm 
 

Didn't ealier in this thread several times say that they are worth at least $1895?


To that person, and probably to a few others, yes. As a result, it would only seem profitable for a seller to look first for values in that ballpark when trying to unload it. If no one comes along, then the seller may wish to lower their price.

But to me, its a bunch of old pieces of paper that hold comparably very little value to me. Why would I pay $1000 for something I value only $100? I would only do so if I were an investor or looking to turn a profit... but not as a buyer or collector.

I've merely argued that value is always subjective. When you agree to pay a price for something, it must be "worth" what you paid for it. Otherwise you wouldn't buy it.

Now, how this relates to the manner in which some sites wish to ascribe "market values" to items is another thread entirely (and to which I have been silent).

  
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