Pricing Ethics (split from Shady Dealers)
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Post Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 8:35 pm 
 

There is no nevcoup on Ebay, good effort though.


I don't think there should be!  :)

  


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Post Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 8:36 pm 
 

Sea-to-sky-games wrote:With respect to the difficulty of gauging market volatility, I wonder what portion of eBay buyers plan on keeping fairly longterm what they buy. What I mean is, for example, how many buy a ridiculously expensive item just to look at it for a few months or years and get rid of it?

It must be difficult to track what any rare item "should go for" if the effective supply of these may be ever dwindling. After all, it seems a lot of the sales done on eBay are not from a collector to a casual buyer, but from a seller who says "gee, I got to get rid of this crap" to an avid collector. As such, and holding interest in the hobby constant, it seems every unusual item bought should put upward pressure on the price.


Back to this id I guess.

Perhaps you can explain how it is then that a Tsojconth that went for around $1,900 last winter most recently went for about $1,100 and before that in late summer went for less than $1,000?

  

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Post Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 8:39 pm 
 

Price shifts do not include noobies buying $2,000 Tsojs. They include items which show an up/down trend over a period of time, involving multiple sales of the same or similar items.
There really is no debate here. A Tsoj (seems to be the running example) is worth $800-$1,200, in nice shape. Plain and simple. If someone pays $1,300 for it, they overpaid. Why do I say this? Because I (and several others here) have seen many copies bought and sold, and that is the realistic range. If you sell one and get $1,800 for it, congrats, you made out and someone took a hard greenie up the brown onion. If ten of them sell for $1,800, to KNOWLEDGEABLE BUYERS, it IS worth $1,800. Plain and simple.
Seesaw, everyone is certainly entitled to their own view, but this forum is populated largely by collectors. While we do have individuals with questionable collecting ethics, by and large the majority of people here are in it for the joy of ownership. If you try to defend a predatory or profiteer attitude here, you will no doubt catch a shitload of flak.


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Post Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 8:40 pm 
 

My bad: I am andrewlloyd311lla (I didn't get to pick my name?!?!).

  


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Post Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 8:42 pm 
 

If ten of them sell for $1,800, to KNOWLEDGEABLE BUYERS, it IS worth $1,800. Plain and simple.


Don't you mean knowledgeable investors?

  


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Post Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 8:44 pm 
 

nevcoup wrote:My bad: I am andrewlloyd311lla (I didn't get to pick my name?!?!).




http://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.d ... loyd311lla



*scratches head*



Feedback score of 56, 54 of which came in the last 2 months? Not exactly a huge history there for you, is it?


Last edited by thehiddenone on Fri Jan 05, 2007 8:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
  


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Post Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 8:45 pm 
 

I doubt it. Besides, the market is amoral. It has nothing to do with ethics or morality.


Markets are neither moral or amoral.  Business practices, however, can be.  There's no law that says you can't charge what you want in a market as long as you don't conspire with the other sellers in the market to artificially raise the prices.  Hardly applies to this market.  You can make the argument about charging whatever price you want as fair and ethical but it will ultimately be the buyer who determines that for you.

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Post Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 8:45 pm 
 

Sea-to-sky-games wrote:
Don't you mean knowledgeable investors?


No, I am sure he meant buyers.

  


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Post Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 8:47 pm 
 

A Tsoj (seems to be the running example) is worth $800-$1,200, in nice shape. Plain and simple. If someone pays $1,300 for it, they overpaid.


.. if they wish to resell it and resell it tomorrow, then I perfectly agree with this statement.

Moreover, if he DID pay $1,300 it means that he probably won the auction (perhaps laughing that he got it so cheaply) while everyone else passed up perhaps a once in a year opportunity to get their hands on it!

  


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Post Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 8:47 pm 
 

Sea-to-sky-games wrote:
.. if they wish to resell it and resell it tomorrow, then I perfectly agree with this statement.

Moreover, if he DID pay $1,300 it means that he probably won the auction (perhaps laughing that he got it so cheaply) while everyone else passed up perhaps a once in a year opportunity to get their hands on it!


Well, there have been about 7 that have sold in the 365 days so maybe he is on to something.

  


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Post Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 8:49 pm 
 

Markets are neither moral or amoral.


So then by definition they're immoral?  :wink:

  


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Post Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 8:52 pm 
 

Christ, reading throught this thread reminds me of creep1962 all over again. :roll:   Someone else come along to tell everyone else that they have absolutely no idea what they are talking about despite the fact that the collecting experience of the folks on this site averages about 10 to 12 years. You would think that we know at least a little something about this hobby. :roll:  :roll:  :roll:


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Post Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 8:53 pm 
 

So then by definition they're immoral?
 

Thanks.  Now I have to get the dictionary out :roll:

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Post Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 8:56 pm 
 

Sea-to-sky-games wrote:
.. if they wish to resell it and resell it tomorrow, then I perfectly agree with this statement.

Moreover, if he DID pay $1,300 it means that he probably won the auction (perhaps laughing that he got it so cheaply) while everyone else passed up perhaps a once in a year opportunity to get their hands on it!


Let me guess, you are sitting on about 5 of these babies and you are getting to sell them off, right.  "Come one, come all be sure to invest all of your money into my collection and laugh all the way home as you effectively steal these things away from me for a low ball price of $1600."  Right....


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Post Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 8:58 pm 
 

Deadlord39 wrote:Price shifts do not include noobies buying $2,000 Tsojs. They include items which show an up/down trend over a period of time, involving multiple sales of the same or similar items.
There really is no debate here. A Tsoj (seems to be the running example) is worth $800-$1,200, in nice shape. Plain and simple. If someone pays $1,300 for it, they overpaid. Why do I say this? Because I (and several others here) have seen many copies bought and sold, and that is the realistic range. If you sell one and get $1,800 for it, congrats, you made out and someone took a hard greenie up the brown onion. If ten of them sell for $1,800, to KNOWLEDGEABLE BUYERS, it IS worth $1,800. Plain and simple.


Then you are mistaken about the very principles by which collectible markets operate. You load your argument with a spurious distinction between "newbie" and "KNOWLEDGABLE BUYERS." By your reasoning at the beginning of your comment, any knowledgable buyer would buy within "true" range because, being "knowledgable," they would not overpay. If this is the case, then the market just would not fluctuate because, as you say, the market only changes when many knowledgable buyers overpay (which, OF COURSE, wouldn't happen!). If the market worked according to your reasoning the going Tsoj price in 20 years would be "$800-$1,200, in nice shape. Plain and simple." Also, by your reasoning, past rates for Keep on the Borderlands would remain as they were 6 years ago. Logic, experience, and the Acaeum article on the D&D collectible market suggest otherwise.

Again (as this SEEMS to have been overlooked), I am not saying these dealers are not shady (sorry for the double negative). I am making a simple point about collectible markets:

Values are set by buyers in such markets.
If buyers drink the magic Koolaide and pay very high prices for a particular item for a while (whether "newbie" or not) then that is the going rate (not the true price, just the going rate). Sellers are prone to push for this by pricing items higher than book, but it is up to buyers to buy or not.

  


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Post Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 9:00 pm 
 

Markets are neither moral or amoral


Should say markets are amoral, meaning they are neither moral or immoral :oops:

Dictionaries are great things. :idea:

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Post Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 9:01 pm 
 

Let me guess, you are sitting on about 5 of these babies and you are getting to sell them off, right.  "Come one, come all be sure to invest all of your money into my collection and laugh all the way home as you effectively steal these things away from me for a low ball price of $1600."  Right....


I wish! Frankly, I would never pay more than $100 for one of them. If I paid a bit more, then it would be only to turn it over quickly on eBay and make a profit.

You guys to an excellent job -- as if you guys don't get enough of praise around here. I don't know what makes you think I would feel the opposite.

  


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Post Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 9:08 pm 
 

nevcoup wrote:

Then you are mistaken about the very principles by which collectible markets operate. You load your argument with a spurious distinction between "newbie" and "KNOWLEDGABLE BUYERS." By your reasoning at the beginning of your comment, any knowledgable buyer would buy within "true" range because, being "knowledgable," they would not overpay. If this is the case, then the market just would not fluctuate because, as you say, the market only changes when many knowledgable buyers overpay (which, OF COURSE, wouldn't happen!). If the market worked according to your reasoning the going Tsoj price in 20 years would be "$800-$1,200, in nice shape. Plain and simple." Also, by your reasoning, past rates for Keep on the Borderlands would remain as they were 6 years ago. Logic, experience, and the Acaeum article on the D&D collectible market suggest otherwise.

Again (as this SEEMS to have been overlooked), I am not saying these dealers are not shady (sorry for the double negative). I am making a simple point about collectible markets:

Values are set by buyers in such markets.
If buyers drink the magic Koolaide and pay very high prices for a particular item for a while (whether "newbie" or not) then that is the going rate (not the true price, just the going rate). Sellers are prone to push for this by pricing items higher than book, but it is up to buyers to buy or not.




I think that you are clearly missing the point. DL39 here has been in this game for a long time....a long time.  He has seen this stuff(and by stuff I am being specific to D&D stuff as it in itself is unique to anything else) and knows how things go.   uneducated buyers come around every now and then and jack the price of an item or a few items up and then they disappear. i.e the $1895 Tsojconth guy:



http://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.d ... =mark11777



He has purchased exactly 3 items since he paid $1895 for that Tsojconth of which at most 1 was for a D&D item(s).  I am not sure if we should be letting a buyer such as this determine what the market value of these items all by themselves. :?


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