Pricing Ethics (split from Shady Dealers)
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Post Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 5:05 pm 
 

Which is just about where I thought you might go Sea-to-Sky. =)  You equated personal value again with actual value.  Two very different things.  While both have commonalities, they are not the same.  I think maybe your confusing actual market value with consumer demand pricing.  Both have an impact on the other but are not the same and have different driving forces (or defining elements as it were).

It gets back down to the root, "If someone is willing to pay a certain amount of money for something, does that amount equate to value?"  No, Sea it doesnt.  It looks like it does, but that consumer driven price is not based on actual value, but rather a factor of other influences or values.

Let me give you an example.  PSP3's.  If what your saying were true, Sony's production line is worth some serious cash.  Why, because look.  All those parents at christmas who shelled out serious bucks to get their hands on a PSP3 made it worth hundreds if not thousands of dollars.  Wow, Sony really is gonna clean up on that baby.

Oh wait, Sony isnt going to change their price?  Nope, because the PSP3 is not worth what people were paying.  People were paying for something entirely different, the smiles on their kids faces (to use a generality).  Thats the value, not the PSP3.

When people here say, "That Tsoj is waaaaay overpriced and not worth 2k!"  they are correct.  Its not.  However, someone, somewhere just has to have it because she remembered her husband played it way back when and it was his favorite dungeon, and quite frankly, money is not an issue for them.  So she buys it.  Worth every penny to her because her husbands joy is just that, worth every penny.  The module...well, its worth what its worth...exactly what the community at large evaluates its current market value to be.

Hope I cleared that up for ya. =)

*edited for some seriouslly horrible sentence structure, my appologies*


Okay, I can't help but ask, but what exactly is a "potato wedger"? - bclarkie


Last edited by MadMaligor on Mon Jan 08, 2007 5:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
  


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Post Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 5:08 pm 
 

You may have different moral values, and views on ethics, but I wouldn't get into an arguement with any of our resident resellers over the economics of doing business on eBay. They are all very successful.


I don't know what ethics or morality has to do with it. This seems to belie what you wrote earlier.

In any event, I'm sure he's a great seller.. in fact I'm looking at his auctions right now :)

  


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Post Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 5:10 pm 
 

Sea-to-sky-games wrote:

I don't know. It seemed like the conversation hasn't been forced. I've just been responding to questions or comments made by others. I figure it would be rude not to.

If I can persuade some people, fine, but I wasn't aware there were site regulations on what constitutes an interesting discussion. Is there, like, higher costs for the admin the longer the thread? :?


You are missing the point of my comment. :?   The only thing that you are doing by continually beating the dead is horse is to piss people off and insult thier intellignece.  Assuming that everything that you said here so far is absolutely 100% correct(I am not saying that I believe it is mind you), but sooner or later if you keep telling people they are wrong and you are right, it is only going to lead to one thing: Pissed off people and hard feelings. Being 100% honest with you I can say that that is really starting to be the case....


"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." -Neitzche

  


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Post Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 5:14 pm 
 

It gets back down to the root, "If someone is willing to pay a certain amount of money for something, does that amount equate to value?" No, Sea it doesnt. It looks like it does, but that consumer driven price is not based on actual value, but rather a factor of other influences or values.


Then what is value?

For a long time people felt that the value of a good was based on how much labor or effort was put into making it, then add in some value for the cost of the capital equipment necessary to produce it, then throw in some profit/rent on top of that. Maybe some objective practical usage of the good can be thrown in.

But that theory of value cannot (and did not) explain why people value things the way they do.

Only subjective judgement can determine value, least if the term is to have any useful meaning.

  


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Post Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 5:18 pm 
 

they are wrong and you are right, it is only going to lead to one thing: Pissed off people and hard feelings. Being 100% honest with you I can say that that is really starting to be the case....


I disagree. The hard feelings came the very moment I chimed in on the subject (c.f. all the insults I've dealt with). But you are free to characterize the situation as you see fit.

  


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Post Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 5:19 pm 
 

Sea-to-sky-games wrote:
I disagree. The hard feelings came the very moment I chimed in on the subject (c.f. all the insults I've dealt with). But you are free to characterize the situation as you see fit.


Dude, you may be the biggest know-it-all that I have ever seen in my entire life and I have met quite a few.  Perhaps once everyone starts to ignore every single one of your posts, you'll figure it out.  Whatever....


"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." -Neitzche

  

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Post Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 5:23 pm 
 

...and Sea-to-sky-games is still...
...trollin, trollin, trollin...
...dont let this troll keep trollin...
...so ban him, ban him, ban him...
...Lord Foul!!


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Post Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 5:35 pm 
 

bclarkie wrote:
Dude, you may be the biggest know-it-all that I have ever seen in my entire life and I have met quite a few.  Perhaps once everyone starts to ignore every single one of your posts, you'll figure it out.  Whatever....


Just to add a little statistic to this post(If I counted correctly), STS has exactly 54 posts here of which when I did a quick run through I counted a total of 39 instances where he either flat out said someone else was wrong or alluded to it directly.   :roll:   I can tell STS that you certainly did not come here to make friends, thats for sure. :?


"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." -Neitzche

  


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Post Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 6:02 pm 
 

bclarkie wrote:With all due respect Ian, there is a lot of what you think that a majority of the board does not see eye to eye with. :)  As with everyone else, you are most certainly entilted to your own opinion on the matter and I would never attempt to take that away from you. I am quite happy to agree to disagree.  :)

That said, even though you do disagree with what most of what everyone else here thinks, you also have not gone out of your way to try and cram your own opinions on the matter down everyone elses throats either, regardless of what it is. :wink:   The same cannot be said for our new found friend here. :?


I wanted to add on to this post as I realized that it came across kind of casutic and that was not my intent. :oops:   Regardless of the issues at hand your opinion is and should be valued as whether or not it is the same as others on the board does not mean that you are wrong and I am sorry Ian if my post implied this. :(  

My point was that I was trying to indicate that everyone is allowed to disagree on any and every issue if they want for that, the problem comes in when posters try to force their opinions on eveybody else on the site(especially new ones) and then get upset when eveyone isn't just falling all over themselves to praise them for thier genius. :?


"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." -Neitzche

  


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Post Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 6:30 pm 
 

Just to add a little statistic to this post(If I counted correctly), STS has exactly 54 posts here of which when I did a quick run through I counted a total of 39 instances where he either flat out said someone else was wrong or alluded to it directly.      I can tell STS that you certainly did not come here to make friends, thats for sure.


By definition, when one ventures an opinion that goes against the grain there has to be some semblance of "this is right for this reason, this is wrong for that reason." Do you not agree? Can you have a conversation with people that have differences of opinion without telling someone -- "I disagree with you (i.e. I think you're wrong) and here's why.." Impossible.

The one thing that I have not done is resort to personal attacks or put anyone in a negative light by characterizing their intentions, motives, or personal history. Yet this is precisely what I've experienced from many others. I can only think that means that some are not comfortable talking about some of their long held beliefs when they get challenged.

If you disagree with me fine, but there's no need to resort to putting someone down.

  


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Post Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 6:40 pm 
 

Sea-to-sky-games wrote:
By definition, when one ventures an opinion that goes against the grain there has to be some semblance of "this is right for this reason, this is wrong for that reason." Do you not agree? Can you have a conversation with people that have differences of opinion without telling someone -- "I disagree with you (i.e. I think you're wrong) and here's why.." Impossible.

The one thing that I have not done is resort to personal attacks or put anyone in a negative light by characterizing their intentions, motives, or personal history. Yet this is precisely what I've experienced from many others. I can only think that means that some are not comfortable talking about some of their long held beliefs when they get challenged.

If you disagree with me fine, but there's no need to resort to putting someone down.


Umm, I could cite about 10 different circumstances where you have been blatanly rude to people but I won't as its not worth my time.  To save myself some time, I will just point to the most recent circumstance where you blatantly rude to someone:

Sea-to-sky-games wrote:
This is nonsense. Buyers mistakenly assess the condition of the item for sale; buyers mistakenly assess the length of shipping to their location; buyers mistake the investment value of a good; buyers sometimes buy things they already have; buyers even make mistakes working out currency differences (although eBay does compute this automatically when the user's prefs are defined, although not shipping costs).

The reason why mistakes occur is because it is costly for buyers to obtain perfect information. And even if perfect information were available, the price would reflect that (ie. buyers would bid more).

The seller can't be held accountable for buyer mistakes just as buyers can't be held accountable for seller mistakes (or bad entrepreneurial decisions).

I guess the only thing I wanted to add to this conversation is that exchange on eBay is voluntary. With the obvious exception of fraud, if one doesn't like the practices, the high prices, or whatever of a certain seller, you are free not to buy from them.



I do not know where you come from, but where I come from when you tell someone that what they write is nonsense, that is about as RUDE AND CONDESCENDING as you can get. :roll:  Perhaps you should start shining that light on yourself before making the accusations on others.


"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." -Neitzche


Last edited by bclarkie on Mon Jan 08, 2007 6:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
  

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Post Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 6:43 pm 
 

wow - 9 pages now - I want to say something constructive but I think this thread is beyond that now!!

so instead, to quote Draco

LOL :lol:  :lol:

  


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Post Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 6:43 pm 
 

Sea-to-sky-games wrote:
Then what is value?

For a long time people felt that the value of a good was based on how much labor or effort was put into making it, then add in some value for the cost of the capital equipment necessary to produce it, then throw in some profit/rent on top of that. Maybe some objective practical usage of the good can be thrown in.

But that theory of value cannot (and did not) explain why people value things the way they do.

Only subjective judgement can determine value, least if the term is to have any useful meaning.


Again, your getting off on the tangent of value based on other things, not actual item value.  Your adding (or subtracting as it were) value due to other factors not based on basic merit (as defined by some of your parameters in the first paragraph).  Its pretty much apples and oranges...the only problem is you keep saying "But its fruit!"  and I keep saying "Of course its fruit, its just different fruit!" =)

Seperate the individuals value from the item (based on any number of things).  Thats where your getting confused.


Okay, I can't help but ask, but what exactly is a "potato wedger"? - bclarkie

  


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Post Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 6:49 pm 
 

that is about as RUDE AND CONDESCENDING as you can get


Fair enough. I sincerely apologize. If there are other instances where it wasn't very tactful, please let me know. It's hard to get the right tone when writing on a bb.. particularly to 10 different people at once. The word choice used was to stress my unbelief over your other statement, not your personal sanity.

Nevertheless, such gems as "newbie who knows the world", "troll", "book smart".. and questioning my agenda are equally indefensible.

  


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Post Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 6:50 pm 
 

Again, your getting off on the tangent of value based on other things, not actual item value.  Your adding (or subtracting as it were) value due to other factors not based on basic merit (as defined by some of your parameters in the first paragraph).  Its pretty much apples and oranges...the only problem is you keep saying "But its fruit!"  and I keep saying "Of course its fruit, its just different fruit!" =)

Seperate the individuals value from the item (based on any number of things).  Thats where your getting confused.


You suggest value is not subjective, but I'm scratching my head trying to figure out what instead you think it is.

  


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Post Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 6:52 pm 
 

gyg wrote:wow - 9 pages now - I want to say something constructive but I think this thread is beyond that now!!

so instead, to quote Draco

LOL :lol:  :lol:


Well, if it makes you feel any better, I think that I am done now. :)


"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." -Neitzche

  


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Post Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 6:56 pm 
 

Well, if it makes you feel any better, I think that I am done now.


What.. Don't you see I'm trying to become a 'prolific collector' in one thread?!  :lol:

  


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Post Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 7:07 pm 
 

Sea-to-sky-games wrote:
You suggest value is not subjective, but I'm scratching my head trying to figure out what instead you think it is.


Its all subjective.  But by your thinking the market driver for value is the individual and his/her value of the item.  It is not.  It is the group consensus of value that drives the market and the base factors of cost, supply, etc...you mentioned.  Whether its MSRP, recycle value, resell value, collection value, or otherwise.  But on an individual level value of an item has too many varying factors to be considered actual value.  For example, that 2k Tsoj.  Again, if someone buys it for that, they paid based on actual value, plus personal value....whatever those influences are (the husband wife thing I mentioned, millionare for whom money is no object, christmas present, or even the guy witout a clue...hes adding in a factor of basic "ignorance value" for lack of a better term).  The list of examples can go on and on.  But those factors have nothing to do with what the item is actually worth.  Because the Tsoj is not worth 2k.

Its like buying a painting.  Your appreciation and my appreciation of a painting would base the value of a painting at different levels...whatever the personal influences may be.  But when we both take the painting to the gallery to get it appraised and you say "I paid $2000", and I say "I paid $800"....the gallery in the end is gonna say...

"Well boys, I hope you love and enjoy the art, but at the moment they are appraised at $900 each current market auction price."

Does that mean you got gyped?  Well its very possible depending on when you bought it.  But I am guessing that no matter when you bought it, your not exactly going to be jumping up and down for joy when you find out.  You might not be unhappy or even the slightest bit bothered.  But you still paid more than its worth.  Those are the cold facts.


Okay, I can't help but ask, but what exactly is a "potato wedger"? - bclarkie

  

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Post Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 7:16 pm 
 

Grab a beer and start the cheer...

...and Sea-to-sky-games is still...
...trollin, trollin, trollin...
...dont let this troll keep trollin...
...so ban him, ban him, ban him...
...Lord Foul!!


"Ah, you seek meaning? Then listen to the music, not the song."

"I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant."

  


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Post Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 7:31 pm 
 

You might not be unhappy or even the slightest bit bothered.  But you still paid more than its worth.  Those are the cold facts.


But then worth is not subjective, but rather an objective truth that is self-evident to everyone.

Again, I'm not saying that the market can't be used the gauge the value of something (by looking at the market price) for purposes of insurance, replacement, legal reasons or whatever. In fact, I find the pricing guide at Acaeum to be quite useful.

But when I make a choice to buy, they are based on my own valuations... After all, the market is to reflect the sum of individual valuations and then loosely translate these into a price.

Price and value are two different things. In fact, price will always be lower than actual value.

  
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