Sea-to-sky-games wrote:
If you want to seriously argue that people are generally not selfish and do not wish to profit when the opportunity arises, then we'll need another thread.

And almost by definition, every single buyer on eBay, flea markets, whatever values the good far more than the price they end up paying for it... I mean otherwise they wouldn't buy it. If there is a couple people telling sellers the true value of the item -- to the collecting community or to themselves -- there are about 1 million every day that do not.

My brush stands ready.

When I buy used gaming items from a corporation/chain (aka Half Price Books) I see no reason to inform them of an items potential worth in the collectible market.  They have the personnel and resources necessary to research prices; that they don't speaks to the fact they don't see a great potential for extra profit...in other words, the time and money it would take to set an employee to checking the prices for every gaming item that comes in in their mind outweighs the potential profit, plus they typically make their money back for the entire buy after selling just 2-3 items from a lot.
   Conversely, if the item was being sold by a local store that I patronized regularly, I would probably bring up the fact that the item is underpriced, and ask them if they wished to have me sell it for them on commission or something similar.  I would feel bad for someone I dealt with on a regular basis, who was always fair with me, getting screwed on something like that.  However, if the item was bought at a out of town used bookstore, flea market, garage sale, etc, I would see no need to inform the seller.  Once again, it's not my job to do the work of research for the seller and help them maximize profits.  If the seller can't do the least bit of action to plop down in a chair in front of a computer and enter "Tsojonth" on ebay or google, that's not my problem.  
 I've tried to assist people in this way, but not to raise their prices but LOWER their prices to make a sale.  A local used bookstore got a lot of D&D stuff in a few years ago.  Nothing was that great, but among the lot was the inevitible Deities & Demigods w/Cthulhu.  They immediately priced it at $300 because "somebody" told them it was the rarest D&D book ever published.  The next time I came in, they knew I collected D&D and so proudly directed me to the item on a shelf up front. I think I burst out laughing when I saw the price.  I informed them that regardless of what their trusted source had told them, there was no way a copy of this book should bring over $100 at most and that would be for one in perfect condition...not to mention a small bit of time and research would show them that if they had bothered to look on Ebay.  The next time I came in it was lowered to $150 (I guess they thought half the original $300 was more in line). The book sat on their shelf for several years, until they closed up and moved.  Never understood the reasoning. In their case, if they had gotten in a $1 Tsojoncth I would have gladly bought one at that price and never mentioned it's true worth.  If they won't listen to me in one instance, why should I think they would listen to my advice in the other instance...

Mike B.

bclarkie wrote:What is your purpose in continuing to to press this discussion further and further?  Its pretty evident that you have your own ideas and everyone else has thiers. The more that you continue to force feed your ideas onto everyone else here, the more and more it appears as if you are really here trying to start trouble and not much else.....

I am starting to agree.  There doesnt seem to be any clear direction to this thread.  Poll 100 people on this forum with your questions and you will probably get 50 different answers.  We can discuss business ethics and economic strategy as it pertains to RPG collecting and selling until we are blue in the face....actually I think a lot of people here are already at that point.  All I have seen is a lot of arguing, name calling, and the resurgence of a past forum member that I am certain most people here would soon forget.  

Woah - what the hell is going on here ?? I have just read through all 8 pages of this stuff - including some particularly surreal posts      

Let me try and understand, is this really just an argument about whether it is ethical for an ebay store to charge way more than the normal (or average) price for a D&D module?  OK, well a lot of this has been addressed before (if I recall, just some months ago we discussed whether it was ethical to pick up a Woodgrain for a few $$).  But anyway here's my answer: No.  It is sneaky.  

But it really isn't the worst crime in the rpg collecting world (e.g.  overcharging on shipping, trying to corner the market, selling and not shipping  etc etc...).  Am I arguing against the free market and advocating a move towards a 1930s Soviet planned economy?  Again, No.  All markets are commented on (and many are heavily regulated).  That is in a small way what we are doing here - by drawing attention to sellers who massively overcharge (and other shadier business practices) we are trying to help others in the hobby.  Is what we do ethical?  Yes.

Welcome to the forum!

*** edited to add - top marks for the Fellini reference - for me it was like the hospital scene in American Werewolf in London  (only without Jenny Agutter)  

This is one of those threads that really gets interesting, especially if they stay relatively civil.  As a tried and true lurker on a number of boards, this by all measure, is pretty civil (even with the heated exchange between Sea and Hidden...and no Im not counting you Mike, your intervention was misconstrued and it surely is hard to convey intent over text).

But heres the rub.  Like many collectors here, I too get a bit miffed when people get taken advantage of, or when people try to take advantage of me.  But what Sea-to-Sky had to say about how many, if not all of us, look for great buys was pretty brilliant actually.  Heck there is a running post pages long here about just that.  It got me thinking, and if you take a second I think it might sink in a bit.  BClarkie, you may be correct, maybe Sea is just being incendiary.  Still....

How many times over the years that any of us have been collecting, did someone actually send an email back to the old lady who normally sells doilies and antique little pig salt and pepper shakers that the first print her son left in the attic someone won at auction was really worth $80 and not the $25 winnning bid?

Maybe you did, maybe you didnt (not pointing at anyone specific here, just in general).  Does that make you a bad person if you didnt?  Does it make you a saint if you did?  Was it your responsibility to do the ladies homework for her?  Its an interesting moral/ethical question.

We seem to want to do the homework for the sellers we dont like, thats for sure.  Heck I myself have sent some scathing mail to a few I felt were unscrupulous.  Especially the ones that try to hide the shipping fees.

I think Sea-to-Sky is taking a bit of the high road by saying that beauty (or value in this case) is in the eye of the beholder, buyer beware etc....  Its not entirely without merit, because quite frankly, value is pretty subjective.  But its also a very easy to defend position because its without any real judgement.  It looks like hes making a judgement based on generalities, but he isnt really.  In fact hes kind of taking a "Judge not lest you be judged" position (hold the religion comments no need for flame wars please, it was just an easy to understand reference).

So thats it really.  It all comes down to judgement.  Whether its socks at Walmart or the Tsoj.  The socks however are pretty darn regulated by ooooh lets say 100 million purchasers (dont you love internet statistics hehehe) so Walmart has its hands relatively tied.  It cant very well sell socks at $20 a pair.  The Tsoj on the other hand....well thats a different matter.  In fact, besides this board there are very few real reliable sources for value.  So when a reseller gets his hands on something that has some relative rarity, "Eureka!" baby they are off to the races.  People get all pissed off, try to warn the noobs out there not to pay such ridiculous prices.  Some "idiot" buys it for a jillion bucks and theres a post with a few laughs, some name calling about the seller, and so forth.

Does the Aceaum have the right to do that?  Well....actually....yes.   See I think Sea was saying kinda between the lines that maybe we dont or maybe we shouldnt.  I just think he missed one critical element in all of his argument.  That judgement (or value), is everyones responsibility.  The problem with that of course is that too often people do not apply the same judgement to themselves.

I would say to you Sea that your opinions have really made me think and bravo for that.  I would then ask you, did you consider that the value placed by members or the site does factor into that true item value, and that the measure of its impact is just as important as the buyers personal value?  In addition, can a buyer who has no idea of what the market value for an item is, be counted on to evaluate?  Are they pricing the item, or their desire?

Thats the key really.  Its also a very important thing to note when you hear some of those sellers berate this website.  The reason they do so is because they know that members here do their homework for the most part.  I can understand how that might seem a bit brash, because I got that first impression a very long while back.  But give it some thought.  Yes it is entirely subjective, as is lets say the antiques market, or the baseball card market.  Any collectors market for that matter really.  Whether its a Picaso or a Gygax.  The buyer has every right to pay what he or she wishes.  But value is set by the community at large.   It just so happens that this is the community.  For lack of a better description.

It is by no means perfect, but it is the best means we have.

Sea-to-sky-games wrote:
BClarkie: I'm an intellectual. Why my posts? I just wanted someone to answer that very question for me. After all, we bash "bad" sellers.. but do we bash "bad" buyers, who I would argue are far more plentiful?

Wrong again.  It is the sellers responsibility to know the value of what they are selling. Now if a buyer lies to a seller in order to get an item cheaper than what its worth, than I would also agree that that is shady, but if a seller in his/her own ignorance is not aware of an itmes value then they should make the effort to find out.  However, if a seller chooses to remain ignorant of what he/she is selling and lists an item at a price far below its actual value, than they have no one to blame but themselves.  You are arguing two totally different scenarios and trying to connect them as the same, they are not.

Once again though, it is pretty obvious where you stand in this equation and it is pretty apparent where just about everyone else here stands.  Beating the dead horse isn't changing anything, so why continue to argue about it?

If a seller on eBay lists an item at $2000, there has to also be a buyer who also values the item at $2000 in order to affect a sale. Mike could list his Planes of Existance manuscript on eBay for $25K knowing its rarity, but without a buyer willing to pony up the money, it will forever remain unsold.

I see nothing immoral or unethical about that.

Sea-to-sky-games wrote:
I chimed in because MadMaligor had a couple interesting things to say and I wanted to continue the discussion. You are free not to continue if you think it is not productive or interesting.

No, I wrote that again because you never acknowledged it the first time I wrote it. Madmaligor's post came long after I wrote it the first time.  Your refusal to acknowledge it the first time is what prompted it the second time and really says a lot to your intentions here.

mbassoc2003 wrote:If a seller on eBay lists an item at $2000, there has to also be a buyer who also values the item at $2000 in order to affect a sale. Mike could list his Planes of Existance manuscript on eBay for $25K knowing its rarity, but without a buyer willing to pony up the money, it will forever remain unsold.

I see nothing immoral or unethical about that.

With all due respect Ian, there is a lot of what you think that a majority of the board does not see eye to eye with.  As with everyone else, you are most certainly entilted to your own opinion on the matter and I would never attempt to take that away from you. I am quite happy to agree to disagree.  

That said, even though you do disagree with what most of what everyone else here thinks, you also have not gone out of your way to try and cram your own opinions on the matter down everyone elses throats either, regardless of what it is.   The same cannot be said for our new found friend here.

Which is just about where I thought you might go Sea-to-Sky. =)  You equated personal value again with actual value.  Two very different things.  While both have commonalities, they are not the same.  I think maybe your confusing actual market value with consumer demand pricing.  Both have an impact on the other but are not the same and have different driving forces (or defining elements as it were).

It gets back down to the root, "If someone is willing to pay a certain amount of money for something, does that amount equate to value?"  No, Sea it doesnt.  It looks like it does, but that consumer driven price is not based on actual value, but rather a factor of other influences or values.

Let me give you an example.  PSP3's.  If what your saying were true, Sony's production line is worth some serious cash.  Why, because look.  All those parents at christmas who shelled out serious bucks to get their hands on a PSP3 made it worth hundreds if not thousands of dollars.  Wow, Sony really is gonna clean up on that baby.

Oh wait, Sony isnt going to change their price?  Nope, because the PSP3 is not worth what people were paying.  People were paying for something entirely different, the smiles on their kids faces (to use a generality).  Thats the value, not the PSP3.

When people here say, "That Tsoj is waaaaay overpriced and not worth 2k!"  they are correct.  Its not.  However, someone, somewhere just has to have it because she remembered her husband played it way back when and it was his favorite dungeon, and quite frankly, money is not an issue for them.  So she buys it.  Worth every penny to her because her husbands joy is just that, worth every penny.  The module...well, its worth what its worth...exactly what the community at large evaluates its current market value to be.

Hope I cleared that up for ya. =)

*edited for some seriouslly horrible sentence structure, my appologies*