Pricing Ethics (split from Shady Dealers)
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Post Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 4:30 pm 
 

To me, it doesn't matter what your prices are, if you can get someone to buy a Tsoj for $2,000 then more power to you. I don't care if you charge $35 for shipping that Tsoj as long as the cost is upfront, which it is.  I think both prices are a bit high but it is your right to set prices as you see fit and you're not forcing anyone to buy so that's your business.


I agree 100%.

Someone else remarked that a bidder paid "too much" for a Tsoj, saying they bid far more than what it is "worth". The module is "worth" whatever someone paid for it. Period. This site is supposed to reflect values people give to items, not the other way around.

Moreover, if the bid is 1895.00, then unless it's a "buy it now", someone else wanted to pay 1890.00 for it.

That is a good argument, because people should ultimately look out for themselves. But folks shopping at a respectable establishment should expect fair prices, and certainly should expect fair shipping


Respectfully, there's no such thing as a "fair price" or "fair shipping". Do you mean "average" price or "average shipping cost"?

Maybe some firms do better than others by not being "average" -- it certainly seems the case for the seller in question. Just my two cents.

  


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Post Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 4:49 pm 
 

Sea-to-sky-games wrote:Someone else remarked that a bidder paid "too much" for a Tsoj, saying they bid far more than what it is "worth". The module is "worth" whatever someone paid for it. Period. This site is supposed to reflect values people give to items, not the other way around.



If only it was that simple. One auction or sale does not determine the "value" of an item any more than one person's opinion of the value.

  


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Post Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 4:50 pm 
 

Sea-to-sky-games wrote:
Respectfully, there's no such thing as a "fair price" or "fair shipping". Do you mean "average" price or "average shipping cost"?

Maybe some firms do better than others by not being "average" -- it certainly seems the case for the seller in question. Just my two cents.


So paying $1000 shipping for a single magic card is just simply above average? Jeez, I think really need to rethink what the word fair means.

  

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Post Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 4:51 pm 
 

Sea-to-sky-games wrote:
Respectfully, there's no such thing as a "fair price" or "fair shipping". Do you mean "average" price or "average shipping cost"?

Maybe some firms do better than others by not being "average" -- it certainly seems the case for the seller in question. Just my two cents.


This is not true.  There is such a thing.   Placing an exorbitantly high price on an item in the hopes that someone who doesn't even have a general idea of the going value will come along and purchase it is NOT fair.  Call it what you will . . . say a buyer should beware . . . whatever . . .   :roll:

I've been around ebay long enough to know.  I'd rather loose a little cash than to take unfair advantage of someone.  

And, yes, I do think less of those who charge sky-high prices to try and snag a newbie.


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Post Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 6:57 pm 
 

If only it was that simple. One auction or sale does not determine the "value" of an item any more than one person's opinion of the value.


I think we agree 100%, but perhaps I missed your point based on the tone of the post. It is unreasonable to say something is not "worth" xx dollars when in fact people (or at least one person) is willing to pay that very sum.

Unless you qualify "worth" by saying something like "assigned worth held by most people who collect TSR goodies", "worth" is precisely what one person is willing to pay for it. Moreover, even if one qualified such a statement, why would firms wish to price in this manner? It seems only effecient that they sell the items to those who value the item the most.

I was not commenting on how numbers get put next to products (such as by Acaeum) for the use of sellers to gauge their value.. though that's probably an interesting thread.

  


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Post Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 7:01 pm 
 

Placing an exorbitantly high price on an item in the hopes that someone who doesn't even have a general idea of the going value will come along and purchase it is NOT fair.


I don't understand this statement. If they didn't think the item was worth what they paid for it, why would they spend the money?

Now, do some make investment decisions (and perhaps the hobby is one of them) that are based on incomplete or faulty information? Sure. But that has nothing to do with fairness. If it did, then pretty much every single car bought from a dealer -- in the history of car sales -- was unfair. The list is endless.

  


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Post Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 7:06 pm 
 

Sea-to-sky-games wrote:
I think we agree 100%, but perhaps I missed your point based on the tone of the post. It is unreasonable to say something is not "worth" xx dollars when in fact people (or at least one person) is willing to pay that very sum.

Unless you qualify "worth" by saying something like "assigned worth held by most people who collect TSR goodies", "worth" is precisely what one person is willing to pay for it. Moreover, even if one qualified such a statement, why would firms wish to price in this manner? It seems only effecient that they sell the items to those who value the item the most.

I was not commenting on how numbers get put next to products (such as by Acaeum) for the use of sellers to gauge their value.. though that's probably an interesting thread.



Once again, just because one person out there, an uneducated buyer at that,  pays an amount for a particular item does not mean that its worth that.  Worth is a subjective term, not objective. If worth to one person was used to determine an items true value, then my house is worth 100,000,000 to me, so I guess that makes me a multi-millionare.


Last edited by thehiddenone on Fri Jan 05, 2007 7:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
  


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Post Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 7:10 pm 
 

Sea-to-sky-games wrote:
I don't understand this statement. If they didn't think the item was worth what they paid for it, why would they spend the money?

Now, do some make investment decisions (and perhaps the hobby is one of them) that are based on incomplete or faulty information? Sure. But that has nothing to do with fairness. If it did, then pretty much every single car bought from a dealer -- in the history of car sales -- was unfair. The list is endless.


So you think placing an absorbantly high value on item, far more than it typically goes for, simply with the hopes of snagging some uneducated buyer out there, who buys it because its an impulse buy without knowing what its real value is not shady? I guess we just grew under an entirely different set of morals.  Just because some people pray on others and are okay with it, does not make it fair, nor does it make it right.  People kill each other every day too and get away with it sometimes too, is that fair? Or does that make it right?


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Post Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 7:12 pm 
 

This is not true.  There is such a thing.   Placing an exorbitantly high price on an item in the hopes that someone who doesn't even have a general idea of the going value will come along and purchase it is NOT fair.  Call it what you will . . . say a buyer should beware . . . whatever . . .   


Agreed!!  I try and set my prices in hopes that the same person will buy from me again in the future.  Setting a price that is double or triple the going rate might generate an occassional sale but only at the risk of permanently losing that customer should they figure it out.  Not a good business plan and certainly not good ethics.

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Post Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 7:49 pm 
 

Once again, just because one person out there, an uneducated buyer at that,  pays an amount for a particular item does not mean that its worth that.  


Why not?

More importantly, it certainly was worth it to the buyer, which was the subject of my original post.

Worth is a subjective term, not objective.


If I follow the point you are trying to make, then shouldn't this be the other way around?

If worth to one person was used to determine an items true value, then my house is worth 100,000,000 to me, so I guess that makes me a multi-millionare.


Actually, it does, in a sense. It means that you'd be indifferent between having $100,000,000 and no house, or just the house. The owner of something commonly values it more than what the market thinks it is worth.

Think about your car. If it has a book value of $10,000, does that mean I can just give you a $10,000 and take your car? No. You'd be pretty ticked off. There is a replacement cost for you and sentimental value -- among other things -- that make you value it a lot more than the market.

Finally, I never commented on how Acaeum or whoever else collects data on sales or how it condenses these numbers into useful tools for sellers and investors. I'm sure they do an awesome job. But just don't be telling someone they overpaid for something... worth is subjective.

  


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Post Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 7:55 pm 
 

So you think placing an absorbantly high value on item, far more than it typically goes for, simply with the hopes of snagging some uneducated buyer out there, who buys it because its an impulse buy without knowing what its real value is not shady?


No one is forcing anyone to buy anything. If I'm a buyer, then its real value is (at least) the amount of money I pay for it. If I'm an investor, then correctly assessing the market is important.. but investors who make bad decisions reflects only on themselves not some third party.

I guess we just grew under an entirely different set of morals.


I doubt it. Besides, the market is amoral. It has nothing to do with ethics or morality.


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Post Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 7:57 pm 
 

Sea-to-sky-games wrote:

 Once again, just because one person out there, an uneducated buyer at that,  pays an amount for a particular item does not mean that its worth that.
 
Why not?

More importantly, it certainly was worth it to the buyer, which was the subject of my original post.




Here is to betting that when the buyer in question tries to turn around and sell it and only gets 1/2 of what he paid for it, maybe then he'll change his mind as to its worth.  As noted, despite the error in my post, the value of something is an objective figure determined by many sales, not one uneducated buyer, sorry it just does not work that way.  I did however learn a valuable lesson on the forum here today, do not buy from sea-to-sky-games, he will take you for everything that he can get away with. Thank you as I would have hated to have had to learn that with my wallet.

  


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Post Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 8:01 pm 
 

Sea-to-sky-games wrote:No one is forcing anyone to buy anything. If I'm a buyer, then its real value is (at leaest) the amount of money I pay for it. If I'm an investor, then correctly assessing the market is important.. but investors who make bad decisions reflects only on themselves not some third party.


Perhaps the lamest excuse ever.  Allow someone just enough rope to hang themselves huh? Thats great.  The world is full of stupid people, that doesn't make it alright to take advantage of them, although it is quite apparent that you obviously feel differently. So what do you do as your full time day job, work pyramid scams?

  


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Post Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 8:10 pm 
 

Unless I misunderstood, the forum is for a fruitful exchange of ideas. When you return to civility I'll be more than happy to continue this conversation.

  


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Post Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 8:20 pm 
 

Sea-to-sky-games wrote:Unless I misunderstood, the forum is for a fruitful exchange of ideas. When you return to civility I'll be more than happy to continue this conversation.


A fruitful exchange of ideas doesn't include advocating scamming, which is pretty much what you have endorsed here today.   I have been civil especially considering that fact.


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Post Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 8:21 pm 
 

Hello,

First time poster, relatively new collector, long-time gamer (started in 1980). I have lurked about this site for some time now, and would like to start off by saying "THANK YOU" to all of you for the great reading and important information I have gained as I begin my collection (I am nevcoup on EBAY if you happen to see me). Now, on to my point (and why I have decided to register and post...).

Disclaimers:

I generally agree with most of the complaints here regarding the shady dealers identified.

I DO think that some of these dealers are knowingly taking advantage of impulse buyers.

I also believe that some of these dealers are shilling, lying, and, in general, out to make a quick buck without regard to good business practice.

HOWEVER:

There is no such thing as "real value" when it comes to collectibles. I have seen this phrase used frequently on this thread as if there were an objective marker/standard that we can refer to (e.g., the Acaeum guide) to determine "true value." This is highly misleading and completely mistaken.  The value of any collectible is set by the buyer, not the seller (or price guide). If someone is willing to spend 5X "book value" for something, then, by definition, that is the item's value to that person. Let me explain in more detail. I may be new to this collectible field, but have been involved in coins, baseball cards, books, and non-sporting cards for 29 years. I ran a baseball card shop in the 90's (yeah, I know...who didn't...). In each of these fields value is determined by taking the pulse of the market, usually on a regular basis. If people pay much more than the price guide says, and do so for a while, then the price guide adjusts (upward). This site follows this practice pretty well. It is no Beckett (sports cards), but this field is MUCH MUCH smaller so updates are slower and the market is prone to more volatility (e.g., Keep on the Borderlands selling for $50). Indeed, even the essay on this site regarding the status of the collectible market cites that Acaeum measures "what sells for what" in an attempt to set prices, adjusting to the inevitable ups and downs.

Again, I am not saying that the shady dealers discussed here are not shady. I suspect they are! What I am saying is that any satement that refers to "real" or "true" value of an item is wrong-headed. Think about it: If the Acaeum (beckett, whatever...) had "true values" listed, and people only bought and sold according to these "true values," then prices would NEVER go up or down. If this happened, then this would not be a collectible field. It would be more like commodities (even they change...). Some might say, "I know that, prices do change, but not so drastically...", then I would refer you to the history of ANY other collectible market that has been around for a while. You WILL see WILD price shifts on items that are unrelated to "true" scarcity in each market. This is the very nature of collectibles...

  


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Post Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 8:26 pm 
 

nevcoup wrote:Hello,

First time poster, relatively new collector, long-time gamer (started in 1980). I have lurked about this site for some time now, and would like to start off by saying "THANK YOU" to all of you for the great reading and important information I have gained as I begin my collection (I am nevcoup on EBAY if you happen to see me). Now, on to my point (and why I have decided to register and post...).

Disclaimers:

I generally agree with most of the complaints here regarding the shady dealers identified.

I DO think that some of these dealers are knowingly taking advantage of impulse buyers.

I also believe that some of these dealers are shilling, lying, and, in general, out to make a quick buck without regard to good business practice.

HOWEVER:

There is no such thing as "real value" when it comes to collectibles. I have seen this phrase used frequently on this thread as if there were an objective marker/standard that we can refer to (e.g., the Acaeum guide) to determine "true value." This is highly misleading and completely mistaken.  The value of any collectible is set by the buyer, not the seller (or price guide). If someone is willing to spend 5X "book value" for something, then, by definition, that is the item's value to that person. Let me explain in more detail. I may be new to this collectible field, but have been involved in coins, baseball cards, books, and non-sporting cards for 29 years. I ran a baseball card shop in the 90's (yeah, I know...who didn't...). In each of these fields value is determined by taking the pulse of the market, usually on a regular basis. If people pay much more than the price guide says, and do so for a while, then the price guide adjusts (upward). This site follows this practice pretty well. It is no Beckett (sports cards), but this field is MUCH MUCH smaller so updates are slower and the market is prone to more volatility (e.g., Keep on the Borderlands selling for $50). Indeed, even the essay on this site regarding the status of the collectible market cites that Acaeum measures "what sells for what" in an attempt to set prices, adjusting to the inevitable ups and downs.

Again, I am not saying that the shady dealers discussed here are not shady. I suspect they are! What I am saying is that any satement that refers to "real" or "true" value of an item is wrong-headed. Think about it: If the Acaeum (beckett, whatever...) had "true values" listed, and people only bought and sold according to these "true values," then prices would NEVER go up or down. If this happened, then this would not be a collectible field. It would be more like commodities (even they change...). Some might say, "I know that, prices do change, but not so drastically...", then I would refer you to the history of ANY other collectible market that has been around for a while. You WILL see WILD price shifts on items that are unrelated to "true" scarcity in each market. This is the very nature of collectibles...


Thanks, I'm impressed.

There is no nevcoup on Ebay, good effort though.

  


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Post Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 8:33 pm 
 

With respect to the difficulty of gauging market volatility, I wonder what portion of eBay buyers plan on keeping fairly longterm what they buy. What I mean is, for example, how many buy a ridiculously expensive item just to look at it for a few months or years and get rid of it?

It must be difficult to track what any rare item "should go for" if the effective supply of these may be ever dwindling. After all, it seems a lot of the sales done on eBay are not from a collector to a casual buyer, but from a seller who says "gee, I got to get rid of this crap" to an avid collector. As such, and holding interest in the hobby constant, it seems every unusual item bought should put upward pressure on the price.

  


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Post Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 8:35 pm 
 

There is no nevcoup on Ebay, good effort though.


I don't think there should be!  :)

  


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Post Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 8:36 pm 
 

Sea-to-sky-games wrote:With respect to the difficulty of gauging market volatility, I wonder what portion of eBay buyers plan on keeping fairly longterm what they buy. What I mean is, for example, how many buy a ridiculously expensive item just to look at it for a few months or years and get rid of it?

It must be difficult to track what any rare item "should go for" if the effective supply of these may be ever dwindling. After all, it seems a lot of the sales done on eBay are not from a collector to a casual buyer, but from a seller who says "gee, I got to get rid of this crap" to an avid collector. As such, and holding interest in the hobby constant, it seems every unusual item bought should put upward pressure on the price.


Back to this id I guess.

Perhaps you can explain how it is then that a Tsojconth that went for around $1,900 last winter most recently went for about $1,100 and before that in late summer went for less than $1,000?

  
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