handling charge completely wrong
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Grandstanding Collector
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Post Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 6:48 pm 
 

Sea-to-sky-games wrote:
In the Soviet Union you had shortages of everything and long lineups.. and this was precisely because the goods were free. People would buy more than prices were ultra low.

Just as in the US, when we imposed price controls on gas in the 70s, you had to weight around the block to buy some.

These are all cases of the law of supply and demand working perfectly. I don't think I've used other theories.. but if so, what other "theories" have I used that don't apply?


In case no one told you this, the theory of supply and demand is a pure capitalistic theory.  This country however is not a purely capitalistic one with govermental control on a multitude of things from pricing of items, to safety and secrurity requirements on businesses, to wellfare for the poor, to interest rates set by the fed, to the stock market trading and disclosures as insider trading forbidance.  Under a system of pure capitalism this things will not be regualted one bit, as it all fair game. Fortuantely, we have these things in place to prevent people from taking advantage of others. Thats said, because of these factors the theory behind supply and demand are not as applicable because of these controls in place.  :?


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Post Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 6:52 pm 
 

Thats said, because of these factors the theory behind supply and demand are not as applicable because of these controls in place.


No worries. We have just 100% different understanding of what constitutes the theory of supply and demand.

All I've ventured is that people are price sensitive. Simple as that. That won't change wherever you are, or whatever system you are in.

  


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Post Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 6:58 pm 
 

Sea-to-sky-games wrote:
No worries. We have just 100% different understanding of what constitutes the theory of supply and demand.

All I've ventured is that people are price sensitive. Simple as that. That won't change wherever you are, or whatever system you are in.




Well, unless your idea of the theory differs substantially from this one:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supply_and_demand

then maybe we should just agree to disagree.


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Post Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 7:03 pm 
 

deimos3428 wrote:Can we all just agree that BadMike summed that up perfectly?  If I were to guess he's also a little bit drunk, but that's not an insult coming from a Canuck.  :)


Hey, that was the ONE time...not adverse to the grape or hops, mind you, just that I tend to indulge only on the weekends when the local sports franchises make such activities mandatory.... :wink:

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Post Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 7:05 pm 
 

bclarkie wrote:
In case no one told you this, the theory of supply and demand is a pure capitalistic theory.  This country however is not a purely capitalistic one with govermental control on a multitude of things from pricing of items, to safety and secrurity requirements on businesses, to wellfare for the poor, to interest rates set by the fed, to the stock market trading and disclosures as insider trading forbidance.  Under a system of pure capitalism this things will not be regualted one bit, as it all fair game. Fortuantely, we have these things in place to prevent people from taking advantage of others. Thats said, because of these factors the theory behind supply and demand are not as applicable because of these controls in place.  :?


I have to interject that it's nice to have this discussion on the forum going full bore...beats the inevitable "B1 is loads better than B2", "3rd Edition was created by Satan", and "Cougar sucks balls" tidbits that tend to clog up the threads. Not that I'm opposed to any of them, mind you, just nice to have a little intellectual variety....

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Post Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 7:06 pm 
 

I think you misunderstand what I have said or are just don't have an intelligent response.  I have not said anything about the sticker price on an item.  Only fees that you pay when you go to cash out.  What you are saying in your response

Sea-to-sky-games wrote:Actually this very thing occurs! When goods get stolen from a store, they raise their prices. When janitor expenses (cleaning) goes up, they raise their prices. This happens whenever costs are borne by the seller.. they always find ways to impose it on the buyer.


is that you have actually been to a store, picked up an item off the shelf and gone to pay.  At this point they add new fees onto your bill for janitor expenses, stolen item expenses?  I'm sorry but again in the real world this just doesn't happen.  These extra fees get incorporated into the sticker price - the cost of doing business is incorporated into the sticker price.  What I am saying is that there is no place for these fees to be added in any other place in any consumer based business so why should it be there on Ebay?  

Your attempt to twist around the point I have made seems to further prove that you do not have any coherent response to this.

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Post Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 7:22 pm 
 

is that you have actually been to a store, picked up an item off the shelf and gone to pay.  At this point they add new fees onto your bill for janitor expenses, stolen item expenses?  I'm sorry but again in the real world this just doesn't happen.  These extra fees get incorporated into the sticker price - the cost of doing business is incorporated into the sticker price.  What I am saying is that there is no place for these fees to be added in any other place in any consumer based business so why should it be there on Ebay?


Precisely because there is a 3rd party (eBay) that is setting the rules in such a way that sales aren't affected symmetrically. These rules give sellers an incentive to act by slightly increasing s/h fees and lowering initial bid prices. I'm not saying its widespread, but on the margin, sellers will do so.

Many non-eBay businesses that are subject to special treatment of the law or unusual costs do add in a fee on the final price. A lot of times they will disguise it, just as online sellers do by incorporating it into s/h which is highly subjective. Other times you just get slapped in the face with them, c.f. your cellular phone bill, water bill, among many other instances.

  


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Post Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 8:01 pm 
 

Hey, has anybody seen The Acaeum forums around here? It used to be this cool site for discussing D&D collecting and doing research. And I could have sworn it was at this URL, but I seem to have stumbled upon a forum concerning economic theory.

Anyway, could someone PM me with a link? :?

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Post Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 9:03 pm 
 

MShipley88 wrote:You should be wary of any seller who does not list shipping and you should absolutely refuse to deal with any seller who will not give a firm shipping quote...including a "handling fee."

Back to the original topic (or at least what I perceive to be the topic): M-Ship seems to have summed up a good "buyer's checklist" in his earlier post.

Personally, when I am in eBay buying mode, I will not bid/snipe on any listing that is not clear about my final total of shipping/handling charges. Frankly, the seller can call this "shipping," or he can call it "handling" — I honestly don't care, provided it is clearly stated what my final, out-the-door costs will be.

Also, as we've brought up dozens of times here, there is nothing on eBay, no matter how rare, that won't be coming up for sale again within a year. So there's never a reason to mess around with a seller who refuses to clearly state all of his after-auction fess. It's far easier to ignore that seller and check other listings for the item in question.

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Post Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 9:29 pm 
 

Sea-to-sky-games wrote:Precisely because there is a 3rd party (eBay) that is setting the rules in such a way that sales aren't affected symmetrically. These rules give sellers an incentive to act by slightly increasing s/h fees and lowering initial bid prices. I'm not saying its widespread, but on the margin, sellers will do so.


What? That is nonsense.  Two things here first. 1) You can't slightly increase the shipping cost - it is what it is.  Anything above the shipping cost is a handling fee.  2) There is always a 3rd party setting the rules!  The store you bought an item from is also a 3rd party - they did not make the item.  Their management determines how to sell such things.  How long do you think a store would last if everytime you went to a cashier to pay you got a list of additional charges?  This is precisely symmetric to how  Ebay works.  The "cost of doing business" is incorporated into the sticker price/starting auction price.   

Sea-to-sky-games wrote:Many non-eBay businesses that are subject to special treatment of the law or unusual costs do add in a fee on the final price. A lot of times they will disguise it, just as online sellers do by incorporating it into s/h which is highly subjective. Other times you just get slapped in the face with them, c.f. your cellular phone bill, water bill, among many other instances.


Your statements don't seem to make any sense to me.  Yes some non-Ebay businesses have extra costs or special treatment.  That makes sense.  But your statement "A lot of times they will disguise it" makes absolutely no sense.  How exactly do retail stores do that?  You buy an item off the shelf, bring it to a cashier, pay your going rate of tax on top and are done.  The examples that you give for cell phone and water, hydro etc are all commodities and do not apply here.  Many fees they charge are percentage fees which are completely illegal in most states for retail purchases including the state in which Ebay is run in.  Ebay does not allow sellers to charge a fee based on percentage of the final auction value.  First off because it has no place and second because it is against the law.  Again, if you can provide an example of some retail chain or store that is run by having price a sticker price on the item and then when you go to checkout you get charged for all these additional fees such as janitorial or insurance or to pay for management or product markup I would then be willing to consider your argument.

But until then, a seller that lowers their starting bid to include their "cost of doing business" into a completely unrelated shipping fee is definitely a shady dealer!

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Post Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 9:32 pm 
 

Xaxaxe wrote:Hey, has anybody seen The Acaeum forums around here? It used to be this cool site for discussing D&D collecting and doing research. And I could have sworn it was at this URL, but I seem to have stumbled upon a forum concerning economic theory.

Anyway, could someone PM me with a link? :?


I miss that place too and have had my fill of this thread.  Sea's weak arguments and unfounded conjectures don't really make it very good sport.

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Post Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 11:09 pm 
 

What? That is nonsense.  Two things here first. 1) You can't slightly increase the shipping cost - it is what it is.  Anything above the shipping cost is a handling fee.


As indicated by "s/h" in my post.

2) There is always a 3rd party setting the rules!  The store you bought an item from is also a 3rd party - they did not make the item.  Their management determines how to sell such things.  How long do you think a store would last if everytime you went to a cashier to pay you got a list of additional charges?  This is precisely symmetric to how  Ebay works.  The "cost of doing business" is incorporated into the sticker price/starting auction price.  
 

Agreed. I don't think the 3rd party rules is an explanation for why it occurs in one market but not in another. Now that I think of it, other lines of business often have conditions imposed on them by their supplier (for instance).

Your statements don't seem to make any sense to me.  Yes some non-Ebay businesses have extra costs or special treatment.  That makes sense.  But your statement "A lot of times they will disguise it" makes absolutely no sense.  How exactly do retail stores do that?  You buy an item off the shelf, bring it to a cashier, pay your going rate of tax on top and are done.  


By disguising it, all I meant was that they incorporated it into the sticker price.

The examples that you give for cell phone and water, hydro etc are all commodities and do not apply here.  Many fees they charge are percentage fees which are completely illegal in most states for retail purchases including the state in which Ebay is run in.


I wasn't aware we were restricting ourselves to a very narrow definition of "where else does this happen?".

If you want to restrict whether fees are assessed in only retail markets, then I would probably agree. At this point I can't think of a certain example (unless you don't consider buying a phone "retail").

My point was only that adding fees not inherent to the price of the good or shipping does occur elsewhere. Hence my post.

  

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Post Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 11:20 pm 
 

Reading through all of this I realise that I am -

a)not as clever as I thought I was
or
b)bored,bored,bored of it all

(And I never thought that I was that clever in the first place :lol:)

  

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Post Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 11:24 pm 
 

gyg wrote:Reading through all of this I realise that I am -

a)not as clever as I thought I was
or
b)bored,bored,bored of it all

(And I never thought that I was that clever in the first place :lol:)


Or rather:

a) You are clever.  Some people resort to using lots of words to appear they are clever but are not

b) bored, bored, bored like the rest of us ....

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Post Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 11:30 pm 
 

I'm trying to be flippant whilst not getting sucked in - But that would mean having to re-read all of this from the beginning just to find out what the point made in the original post was. (anyone want to sum up?(J/K please don't)) :lol:

  


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Post Posted: Tue Jan 09, 2007 12:04 am 
 

gyg wrote:(anyone want to sum up?(J/K please don't)

I'm pretty sure a summary would be "handling fees suck." We're on page four now due to a blatant threadjacking. :?

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Post Posted: Tue Jan 09, 2007 11:20 am 
 

Sea-to-sky-games wrote:
I wasn't aware we were restricting ourselves to a very narrow definition of "where else does this happen?".

If you want to restrict whether fees are assessed in only retail markets, then I would probably agree. At this point I can't think of a certain example (unless you don't consider buying a phone "retail").

My point was only that adding fees not inherent to the price of the good or shipping does occur elsewhere. Hence my post.


If you we are talking about Ebay which is essentially a retail store then you have to compare it with similar businesses.

Telephone, hydro, water, etc are all utilities and are governed by a completely different set of rules.

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Post Posted: Tue Jan 09, 2007 11:32 am 
 

Mars wrote:
If you we are talking about Ebay which is essentially a retail store then you have to compare it with similar businesses.

Telephone, hydro, water, etc are all utilities and are governed by a completely different set of rules.


Oh please no, not anymore....

:)


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