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Post Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2003 10:16 am 
 

Mike:

I agree with you that sellers should not hold positive feedback hostage.  I just think that waiting for acknowledgment of receipt encourages buyers to attempt to work things out before pulling the negative trigger.  Sometimes honest mistakes happen.  When the buyer states he has the item then it is the seller's duty to provide positive feedback.



I've thought about the 89 day thing, but I just can't seem to hold a grudge that long!!!   :D   Plus, I always forget. :x   You should consider yourself thoroughly evil for even considering it!!!  :wink:  It would be fun to be a fly on the wall when they go to retaliate though...   :twisted:


Dere Fritoad, Two badd yoo copped outt so sooon lazt nighgt. Mised som grooovy trps. Hoap th rring thinng wurcs out awrighgt. Peece, Timm  PS Hear ar som outt of sihgt stash I'm laying onn yoo guyz. Must sine off as rush iss cocomcoming ohgodohgod$#%*@!

  

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Post Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2003 10:26 am 
 

foster1969 wrote:Mike:

I agree with you that sellers should not hold positive feedback hostage.  I just think that waiting for acknowledgment of receipt encourages buyers to attempt to work things out before pulling the negative trigger.  Sometimes honest mistakes happen.  When the buyer states he has the item then it is the seller's duty to provide positive feedback.



I've thought about the 89 day thing, but I just can't seem to hold a grudge that long!!!   :D   Plus, I always forget. :x   You should consider yourself thoroughly evil for even considering it!!!  :wink:  It would be fun to be a fly on the wall when they go to retaliate though...   :twisted:




LOL...well, I've been told I can hold a grudge!  Although truthfully you really have to piss me off to get that treatment. Like when a buyer wins an item, never sends payment, never sends any sort of contact, and then turns up later bidding on other items (or the same item!) on Ebay.  That can torque me off enough to wait the 89 days......



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Post Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2003 10:30 am 
 

That 89 day 23 hour suggestion is priceless!  Can you snipe a feedback?  LOL!!



I agree with everyone who says that the buyer need only pay to get a postive feedback.  When I sell I practice this and find that it actually ingratiates me to sellers.  I have yet to to recieve a negative feedback as a result.



I do not give sellers repeat business who do the "I'll show you mine if you show my yours first," routine.  If they were to ask me to alert them that I got it before giving me feedabck, that's acceptible I guess but kinda lame.

  

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Post Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2003 11:52 am 
 

Sniping feedback is childish. If you can't be an adult about eBay dealings, don't buy and sell thru them.


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Post Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2003 12:11 pm 
 

Deadlord36 wrote:Sniping feedback is childish. If you can't be an adult about eBay dealings, don't buy and sell thru them.




I take that under advisement...along with my ten years of selling online, five years of selling on ebay, and my 2800+ positive feedback. Besides, weren't you the one complaining last month about being overcharaged for shipping and being left a negative?  Did you leave that guy a negative in return?  Real productive.  Should have kept quiet and sniped him a negative instead....



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Post Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2003 12:52 pm 
 

That sinks me to his level. Personally I could give a rat's ass about a few negatives, since I'm not a reseller and on the few occasions that I do sell something, it usually sells for what it is worth. You do have a point, though. Hey, I could always just pay the $20 and have the negative removed, eh? Gotta love eBay, capitalist center of the known world.


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Post Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2003 2:06 pm 
 

... and if it doesn't sell for what it's worth you can always do a little shill bidding... and if you have some negatives, why pay money? You can just change your eBay ID. Some people are really good in such things, aren't they Frank?


- "When the going gets weird, the Weird turn pro."

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Post Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2003 5:15 pm 
 

The seller could get a confirmation number for his shippments and add the cost to shipping. That way the seller will know that the buyer has received the item. You could leave your feedback first as the seller should.  :)

  

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Post Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2003 8:33 pm 
 

LOL, Rolph, I thought you were done whining about that. You assume much, and know very little. Maybe that is why you guys lost WWII.......Hey, at least you supported us in Iraq. Oh wait, you dropped the ball there, too.



Why not avoid mentioning me or replying to my posts, or are you intending to clutter up the Acaeum yet again with your personal vendetta against me? I don't recall posting any for or about you.



Hey, you know what, if it suits you to wait up until 1:59 AM to snipe feedback, do it. I personally have better things to do. I think some people are taking the whole eBay thing just a little too seriously for casual collectors. And I agree with those who say wait until the buyer is happy with the purchase before leaving feedback.

Here's something else. As a seller, you can now file a voided transaction with eBay, and you are refunded the auction price. The buyer does not get a NPB. You simply agree that the transaction is not what you both want. This happened with me when the guy who had the Colorforms wanted $15 for postage from three states away. He said the balance was handling fees, and I told him he needs to list that in the auction, since it simply stated buyer pays shipping cost. He became very reasonable about it, and we negated the transaction. No feedback to be left, it doesn't even show up anymore.


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Post Posted: Tue Oct 14, 2003 1:29 am 
 

Frank, as long as I am on this forum I will be a constant reminder of your foul play. I am ignoring you, but whenever you start talking too loud again, I will be there. This has little to do with a "personal vendetta" and nothing with "whining". I do not forget and the truth must be spoken.



Concering WWII - I did not live when that happened and I think you did not, too. Also, I am not responsible for the actions of my government as you are not responsible for what your government does. This is not a forum about politics. That's all I have to say about that.



PS - It may be true I don't know much, but I definitely know more than you think.


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Post Posted: Tue Oct 14, 2003 8:51 am 
 

Hey, I admitted my mistake when it was explained to me that it was wrong. So feel free to lick my brown starfish, Rolph. Grow UP, fer chrissake!


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Post Posted: Tue Oct 14, 2003 11:12 pm 
 

Ah, what the heck, I might as well wade in on this one.



I can understand a seller not wanting to post feedback immediately upon the receipt of payment. In a perfect world, feedback by a seller would always occur as soon as payment has been made because the seller has fulfilled his side of the bargain (chorus: we do not live in a perfect world). That specter of feedback may be the only thing that will give a seller a chance to make things right.



An item being lost in the mail is no excuse for a buyer not getting what he has paid for regardless of whatever caveat the seller may post in his instructions ("not responsible for items lost in the mail"); unless of course you can prove the item was actually sent with delivery confirmation, etc. If no proof of mailing has been offered, and a lost package is not grounds for negative feedback, then what is to stop any and all sellers to claim an item as being lost in the mail and then just pocketing the cash.



A seller should automatically include delivery confirmation or insurance in the overall shipping cost. Unfortunately, few do this even if they charge exorbitant shipping and handling (Oh, gee, that foot of packing tape and $0.15 envelope really justifies being charged $5.00 for a package that arrives with a $2.00 shipping sticker). Many sellers, and I mean many (you know who you are), simply use shipping as a means to pad their profit.



I will not buy from a seller that states in his auctions that he will only leave feedback after it has been left for him. That tells me that the seller has had problems in the past resolving auctions that may have gone wrong. I bought from Cougarrinard once, and other than his inappropriately high shipping, the auction was completed with no problems. However, I have never bought from him since and have actually stopped even browsing through any of his auctions due to his draconian and deceptive policies. He has shipped many things to the States and I am sure he could list in all of his auctions exactly what he would charge to send an item from the UK to the US. Of course he does not do this because he knows that if he states upfront that it will cost $12 to ship a single module, most people in the US would not even bother looking at his auctions (especially when $4-5 of that is profit for him). That is obfuscation, pure and simple.



-PD

  

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Post Posted: Tue Oct 14, 2003 11:18 pm 
 

Many sellers offer the OPTION of insurance/DC. I always do this. If the option is offered and not taken, I think the seller is under no obligation to refund any money if the package disappears. HOWEVER, whenever I ship an item, I get separate receipts and save them until it arrives at the destination.

And let's be realistic, in 5 years of heavy shipping and receiving via USPS, I have had 1 damaged package and 1 lost, and the lost one turned up with a mail trace. That's THOUSANDS of packages. I'm certainly not advocating shipping a Lost Tamoachan without insurance, but I think things like that are wasted on a $5 item.


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Post Posted: Wed Oct 15, 2003 12:07 pm 
 

I really do not think that insurance/DC is an option for a seller if he truly wants to protect himself from a possible negative or legal action...and like any business, that protection should be folded into the costs and passed onto the customer. I would be a heck of a lot happier if I pay $4.00 for shipping and the USPS sticker shows up at $3.75 (w/insurance or DC) than if I pay $3.00 and the sticker reads $2.00.



I guess if you consider ebay a casual endeaver and not a business then feedback and customer satisfaction means nothing. However, if it is a business then it needs to be conducted as such. That means that if an item is lost in the mail then it is the seller's problem and not the buyer's. Do you think if Dell sends out a $2000 computer that does not arrive that they just tell the customer "well, we sent it out...tough luck." No, Dell is on the hook for that $2000.



Ebay is a collection of some of the biggest bluffs in the business. Sellers almost never end up in court for lost items because they dupe buyers into believing that a seller is not responsible once a package is handed off at the post office. Ah, no, sorry. You need to check on your case law then because you will find that the seller is on the hook until the package ends up at the buyers door. That is why businesses get insurance for these things and they write off such things on their taxes under operating costs.



Granted many of the people selling on ebay are not doing it as a business. However, people such as Cougarrinard, Guido, et. al., are and if they are trying to claim otherwise, well then I am sure some people might like to check into them about tax evasion. Heck, there are insurance companies that are offering medical coverage to people that own businesses on ebay.



-PD

  


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Post Posted: Wed Oct 15, 2003 12:22 pm 
 

Was that covered in "Pierson v. Post"?   I never really paid attention to anything past that!



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Dere Fritoad, Two badd yoo copped outt so sooon lazt nighgt. Mised som grooovy trps. Hoap th rring thinng wurcs out awrighgt. Peece, Timm  PS Hear ar som outt of sihgt stash I'm laying onn yoo guyz. Must sine off as rush iss cocomcoming ohgodohgod$#%*@!

  

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Post Posted: Wed Oct 15, 2003 12:34 pm 
 

PurpleDragon wrote:I really do not think that insurance/DC is an option for a seller if he truly wants to protect himself from a possible negative or legal action...and like any business, that protection should be folded into the costs and passed onto the customer. I would be a heck of a lot happier if I pay $4.00 for shipping and the USPS sticker shows up at $3.75 (w/insurance or DC) than if I pay $3.00 and the sticker reads $2.00.



I guess if you consider ebay a casual endeaver and not a business then feedback and customer satisfaction means nothing. However, if it is a business then it needs to be conducted as such. That means that if an item is lost in the mail then it is the seller's problem and not the buyer's. Do you think if Dell sends out a $2000 computer that does not arrive that they just tell the customer "well, we sent it out...tough luck." No, Dell is on the hook for that $2000.



Ebay is a collection of some of the biggest bluffs in the business. Sellers almost never end up in court for lost items because they dupe buyers into believing that a seller is not responsible once a package is handed off at the post office. Ah, no, sorry. You need to check on your case law then because you will find that the seller is on the hook until the package ends up at the buyers door. That is why businesses get insurance for these things and they write off such things on their taxes under operating costs.



Granted many of the people selling on ebay are not doing it as a business. However, people such as Cougarrinard, Guido, et. al., are and if they are trying to claim otherwise, well then I am sure some people might like to check into them about tax evasion. Heck, there are insurance companies that are offering medical coverage to people that own businesses on ebay.



-PD




First, that insurance ain't that great...I checked into it, it's mostly a supplemental coverage.

  But you are right about sellers being responsible. It's one of the great ripoffs of Ebay that a seller would say that once he gets the item in the mail, it's out of his hands.  Even if it is insured, he's the one with the insurance slip that has to refund the money then fight with the USPS about getting his money back. Over the years I have refunded several buyers out of my own pocket for expenses EVEN if they did not insure the item (which is why I supply insurance myself for all orders over $100...).  Like was said earlier, out of thousands of packages over ten years I've had what, like a dozen lost or damaged?  It's the least I can do to refund the guy's 20 bucks and move on.  Most of the professional online retailers are making money, and even if the guy is trying to jack you, is it worth the $20 or negative feedback to battle him over it? Besides, probably 70% of payments now are through Paypal, and unless the seller provides a traceable method of shipping (delivery confirmation, insurance slip over $50, etc) then for 30 days he's on the hook for the entire amount whether it arrived or not.  I learned this the hard way after a buyer got his item, decided it wasn't what he wanted, then cancelled the Paypal transaction (instead of asking for a refund or credit, of course)...and since the package had no DC or insurance I had no recourse, even though he had sent me an email saying he recieved the item.  

    Some people on Ebay officially aren't a business despite the volume of sales, due to loopholes in laws. But if you're smart you keep records and pay your dues...it's better than sweating the alternative.



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Post Posted: Wed Oct 15, 2003 12:58 pm 
 

Well, the problem is that there ARE no laws about taxation via Internet transactions. If there were, then the seller certainly would be responsible for getting the product to the buyer. It IS possible you're right, though, and that transactions are covered by law regardless of the venue in which they are made. I think from now on I will require at least delivery confirmation. You have a good point.


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Post Posted: Wed Oct 15, 2003 1:10 pm 
 

Liability of lost items has always been a touchy issue.  But after thousands of transactions on both sides of the buying and selling fence, I've found a happy medium that seems to work well.



As a buyer …



Always ask for insurance if you feel you need it.  Personally, I always ask for packages to be insured if I'm paying $50 or more; below that, it depends (seller quality, country of origin, item scarcity, etc. are mitigating factors).  I simply make too many small transactions for "all insurance, all the time" to make sense; but if you want it, ask for it.  If the seller refuses to offer insurance, keep that e-mail for record-keeping purposes, in case anything goes wrong.



It's worth noting that the eBay policy is that the buyer is responsible for clarifying this issue with the seller:



>>(from the Buyer's Checklist:)

Learn all you can about the item. Read the item description carefully. Do you understand all the details about shipping, insurance, payment options and so on? Avoid making assumptions about details that aren't included.



As a seller …



Generally speaking, it is to the seller's detriment to include insurance in the fixed shipping price.  There are two reasons for this:



[1]  Not every buyer wants insurance.  For hardcore collectors, and for high-ticket items (RPGA1, Jade Hare, whatever), this may be a given.  But many casual collectors simply want a single mainstream item (a D1-2, an FR6, etc.), at the lowest possible price.  By all means, make insurance mandatory for the expensive items (~$100+), but if you make it mandatory for cheaper items, you are going to alienate a lot of potential buyers who are looking for a bargain.



[2]  Unless you are using Buy it Now or a reserve, you can't control the ending price of the auction.  It's best to insure an item to its total selling price, minus shipping, because if you have to make a claim later, it's a lot easier to back up "Auction End $57.02" with hardcopy, than it is "approximately $60, but not quite, but I insured it for $60."  The variable rates for insurance can be found at the USPS website.

USPS.com® - File or Page Requested Not Found



Things get even trickier when you have buyers winning multiple items -- if you have a fixed insurance rate listed in the auction, and you hold them to it, they're going to be upset by the resultant overcharge.



Usually, as a seller, I do this:



* If the item is relatively inexpensive (up to ~$25), I don't insure unless the buyer requests it.

* If the order is moderately expensive (up to ~$50), I suggest insurance.  If this suggestion is refused, I make it clear that I will refund *less than 100%* if something goes wrong.  (But I still give partial refunds, even if they refuse to insure, unless I have reason to believe from their feedback or past experience that their claims are potentially fraudulent.)

* If the order is expensive ($50+), I strongly suggest insurance.  But I don't make it mandatory unless I specifically stated that in the auction.



I know this is a thorny issue -- I've suffered on both sides of it.  But, as long as you think ahead, bid smart, read item descriptions, and most importantly, consider the issue from the other party's point of view, 99% of the problems can be avoided from the start.

  
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