2nd print Chainmail on ebay
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Post Posted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 9:20 am 
 

I'm not against making private offers to sellers on ebay, and in fact have entertained private offers on some of the stuff I've put up on ebay.  However, I hope none of us would try to bring down an auction for the sole purpose of trying to seal a private deal once the auction was over.



I'm not by any means suggesting this is what motivated Brian to report the recent 2nd Chainmail auction for shilling.  But in the future we should all try to keep in mind that a suspicious bidder on an auction for one of the rares might actually be one of us, either masking their identity, or intentionally trying to cast doubt on the auction to keep others away.  That probably wasn't the case here, but the fact that the seller is now receiving multiple private offers on the CM (not from me, though) makes you wonder.


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Post Posted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 10:17 am 
 

I'm not exactly sure about all of ebay's "inner workings" , but I think that they don't take auctions down with only circumstantial evidence.  If the auction was brought down, likely their investigation showed the shill bids came in from the same IP address . . . or something else concrete such as paypal/ebay username info, addresses, etc.

In the absence of this, they wouldn't pull the auction.  So, if an acaeum user created a legit "undercover" ID, they shouldn't need to worry as ebay would see they weren't a shill bidder.

The auction being pulled seems to prove it was, indeed, a shill bidder.


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Post Posted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 10:24 am 
 

I really don't know how to respond to this. Let me first say that I in no way shape or form reported that auction for any other reason that it was a 100% shill by the seller-period, point blank, end of discussion.  I am really tired of this shit that goes on this forum nowadays, its grown quite pathetic. A few things that I will say though are this:


1)  I am done reporting shillers, nor will I participate in any shilling discussions or offer any advice on the topic.  It doesn't matter how big or little the shill is and it doesn't matter who is getting thier eyeballs fucked out by it, I am done.

2) The double standards and the greed that have now overtaken this board make me want to vomit.  It seems like everyday, that someone or some people stoop to a new fucking low, that a year and a half ago, I didn't think was possible.

3) I can not be bought, especially not for a book or a sum of books.  I love this stuff as much as most people, but I will not, nor will I ever let myself stoop to the lowdown, scum bag tactics that some of the people of this forum employ to get what they want.


If some of you feel that you will do whatever it takes to get what you want(whoever you are because no one ever has the fucking balls to admit who is doing it), good for you, but don't ever delude yourself into thinking that you are anything less than another stinking pile of shit criminal, that deserves to spend time in jail with the rest of the criminals. The annonyminity of the internet makes you unknown to most others, but it does not change what you really are or what you really do, even if its only really you that knows what you've done.  

My postings here have gone down to a minimum over the last few months, and it situations like this that are a direct result of that.  Everyday, I am less and less inclined to visit and see who else got stabbed in the fucking back by another forum member, its actually quite sad and its also very pathetic.


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Post Posted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 10:30 am 
 

Building off a point in my first post, who is it that those of you who think that its okay to do this shit never, and I mean ever, has the balls to admit it.  I mean if you think what you are doing is okay, why not come out and admit it?  Seriously, please post it, I want to hear people views on this that differs from mine, I really do.


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Post Posted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 11:00 am 
 

Do what? Did I miss something?


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Post Posted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 11:13 am 
 

well chaps, i think y'all know me well enough by now that i would never do something like that.

i would make an offer on something that IS up for auction with no bids on. at no other time would i do so.

dealing with others, i believe very strongly in building up friendships too. it isnt just about a "biz deal" for me, never was, never will be and i hope others think the same way.

however, i will further advocate what BC is saying and i will also vouch for him too. i feel i know him well enough that he would never do something like that.

getting a good deal on something is one thing, but stooping to something like that, is what i would have thought, beyond most ppl round here, but clearly it isnt.

it is very sad i have to say.

i have come to enjoy this forum very much over the last 18 months and i have to say, it has gotten quite sour of late.

cmon guys - we ARE better than that surely?

Al



  

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Post Posted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 11:23 am 
 

The shilling that was being done was pretty trivial. That doesn't excuse the act, but I think in the end it would have made little difference.
As far as double standards and greed, I think the individuals who can be tagged with those appellations are pretty obvious.


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Post Posted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 11:30 am 
 

Let me repeat:

I'm not by any means suggesting this is what motivated Brian to report the recent 2nd Chainmail auction for shilling.


However, I was booted out of an auction for a nice ST1 about a year and a half ago because I was using a new id with 0 feedback.  I was indirectly accused of doing so as a way to scare off others. Those of you who have dealt with me should know I wouldn't take that approach as a means of keeping others away from the auction; it was just a stupid way of trying to get something without my wife knowing about it.  Sounds wussy, but so be it.  I'm a straight shooter and have never tried to screw anyone on this board.  In fact, I've given plenty of stuff away to board members, and have shipped many items at my own expense, including overseas, and have also shipped items prior to being paid for them, so it should be damn clear that I'm not greedy.

The point of the post was just to suggest that we take it easy in the future and not rush to bring down an auction that looks suspicious.  There could be many reasons it looks suspicious, some benign, and some sinister.  I prefer the approach of simply warning others here that it LOOKS suspicious and letting them proceed at their preference knowing it might be risky.  

I was top bidder when this thing went down, and am upset about it.  I apologize if anyone here thinks I meant to cast doubt on their integrity.


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Post Posted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 11:58 am 
 

I think that's pretty appropriate. I actually alerted Lance about a shilled auction (Kandroc) that he was thinking of bidding on.
I doubt anyone considers you greedy. Ugly, maybe, after seeing your school picture, but not greedy. If they do, fuk 'em.


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Post Posted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 12:21 pm 
 

indeedy, stephen is another great guy i have plenty of time for. he has seen me good a few times and he gets the thumbs up too.

so whats happened with this 2nd chainmail now? has it been sold privately to someone?

Al



  


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Post Posted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 12:30 pm 
 

The point in my post is the now going on behind the scenes BS of people trying to make private offers to the seller who was busted for shilling the auction.  I refuse to deal with thieves and scammers, which in essense is exactly what shilling is.  

Deadlord39 wrote:The shilling that was being done was pretty trivial. That doesn't excuse the act, but I think in the end it would have made little difference.



True, it was trivial to that point. The auction a that point still had over 4 days left on it though, so who is to say that it wasn't going to get much much worse as it went on?


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Post Posted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 12:33 pm 
 

bclarkie wrote:2) The double standards and the greed that have now overtaken this board make me want to vomit.  It seems like everyday, that someone or some people stoop to a new fucking low, that a year and a half ago, I didn't think was possible.

and...

bclarkie wrote:Everyday, I am less and less inclined to visit and see who else got stabbed in the fucking back by another forum member


I don't think we are that bad.  Nor to quote killjoy do I think that this forum has got sour.  I know that at several points over the last year there have been ugly incidents.  But broadly I just don't recognise this as a description of the Acaeum.  

Quite often you see congrats to people who buy cool stuff (or get a good deal), or you see helpful posts highlighting things to buy, or people work together and share information about items that have been put up for auction.  Just look at the Private Sales and Sellers thread for an example of collectors working well together.  Not perfect, granted, but not that bad.

As to what happens to the chainmail - I emailed the guy to ask if he was going to relist and why he thinks the auction got pulled (i.e. to see if he would admit to shilling) and he replied "Well I don't know but I will let you know." and when I email him again and ask if he going to relist it - I will post his response, here, for everyone to see.


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Post Posted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 12:35 pm 
 

and no - I didn't make an offer either.


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Post Posted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 12:45 pm 
 

bombadil wrote:Let me repeat:



However, I was booted out of an auction for a nice ST1 about a year and a half ago because I was using a new id with 0 feedback.  I was indirectly accused of doing so as a way to scare off others. Those of you who have dealt with me should know I wouldn't take that approach as a means of keeping others away from the auction; it was just a stupid way of trying to get something without my wife knowing about it.  Sounds wussy, but so be it.  I'm a straight shooter and have never tried to screw anyone on this board.  In fact, I've given plenty of stuff away to board members, and have shipped many items at my own expense, including overseas, and have also shipped items prior to being paid for them, so it should be damn clear that I'm not greedy.

The point of the post was just to suggest that we take it easy in the future and not rush to bring down an auction that looks suspicious.  There could be many reasons it looks suspicious, some benign, and some sinister.  I prefer the approach of simply warning others here that it LOOKS suspicious and letting them proceed at their preference knowing it might be risky.  

I was top bidder when this thing went down, and am upset about it.  I apologize if anyone here thinks I meant to cast doubt on their integrity.


My point in the whole matter is that there wasn't any doubt about it, that seller was shilling the auction.  As Frank noted above, the shilling at that point wasn't bad, yet.  That being said, shilling is both against Ebay policy no matter how great or little it is and it is also in at least my own view a form of theft.  I am sorry that this was a rare item, but to me it doesn't matter if it was the one and only OD&D Woodgrain manuscript, its still being shilled and it needed to stop.   Additionaly(not that it mattered much I would have reported it anyway), but I reported that auction prior to you putting in the high bid on it.  When, I posted it here, the shill bid was actually the highest bid on there.  

Shilling on Ebay to me is just about the ultimate greed.  If sellers are so fucking worried that they aren't going to get as much as they hope on an item, either set a high opening bid or set a reserve.  I don't like paying Ebay's fees anymore than the next guy, but I mean seriously, how fucking greedy can a person be to be so cheap as to not pay like $5 on a one shot item to ensure that they get what they think the item should go for.  But instead, they set a low opening bid and hope to get into a bidding war using a fake Ebay ID  to try and drive the price as high as possible and not have to pay a few bucks listing fees.  It doesn't get much greedier than that.


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Post Posted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 12:55 pm 
 

red_bus wrote:
I don't think we are that bad.  Nor to quote killjoy do I think that this forum has got sour.  I know that at several points over the last year there have been ugly incidents.  But broadly I just don't recognise this as a description of the Acaeum.  

Quite often you see congrats to people who buy cool stuff (or get a good deal), or you see helpful posts highlighting things to buy, or people work together and share information about items that have been put up for auction.  Just look at the Private Sales and Sellers thread for an example of collectors working well together.  Not perfect, granted, but not that bad.

As to what happens to the chainmail - I emailed the guy to ask if he was going to relist and why he thinks the auction got pulled (i.e. to see if he would admit to shilling) and he replied "Well I don't know but I will let you know." and when I email him again and ask if he going to relist it - I will post his response, here, for everyone to see.


I am not saying that everyone on this forum is bad, but some people are ruining it for everyone else.  The "my precious" bullshit is getting very very old, very very quickly.

To note, I have made many deals with several folks here and they all went great.  There are a few folks on this forum who, even though I have never met them in person, I still trust them like they are lifelong friends from elementary school.


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Post Posted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 1:06 pm 
 

bclarkie wrote:The point in my post is the now going on behind the scenes BS of people trying to make private offers to the seller who was busted for shilling the auction.  I refuse to deal with thieves and scammers, which in essense is exactly what shilling is.


Its stupid to make a private offer to someone who got busted for shilling, but I don't see how its sleazy.  Someone who shills an auction is sleazy but someone who buys from him is just playing russian roulette (with a few extra bullets in the cylinder).

If you warn someone that they're in shark infested waters and they still go swimming they're stupid but not necessarily immoral.  Plus, there are probably many people who heard the warning and chose not to go swimming even if they didn't see any sharks themselves.


I do agree that the quality of the threads here have gone down hill recently.  When I first started reading the forums last summer, there seemed to be a fair amount of research and scholarship being conducted here.  Now it seems like its deteriorated mostly into a market place.  Its a real shame that several of the more knowledgeable people are posting less or not at all.

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Post Posted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 2:02 pm 
 

NR: i hear what youre saying chummer, but you gotta also remember that the ppl who do research also have a life and sometimes there just isnt time to do what you want to do.

i have given notice in my job cos frankly i am sick of having no time to do sod all. yeah sure i will become poor like red_bus (yeah right :D) but i will have plenty of time to do stuff.

i wanna do some research, write a book, do some of my own biz, go gencon, do my marathon and do more stuff with Rob and plenty more besides.

but hey there ya go :)

in the end chaps, money will always be money - wherever its involved, you will always get the worst or ppl, as well as the best.

Al



  

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Post Posted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 2:04 pm 
 

on a lighter note, away from Chainmail problems etc, buy some of Rob Kuntz's rares. no shilling or dodgyness going on there :)

am just awaiting two boxes from him to list and some original art too.

i also have some TSR belt buckles of Bill Hoyers to offload, so hey come n spend your cash with me - you cant lose!!! :D

Al



  

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Post Posted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 2:52 pm 
 

I would like to say that I support Bclarkie and think shilling should be reported immediately.  I do not know about deals after the fact, I will leave that to you all.

I pet peeve is thievery and that is what shilling is.


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Post Posted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 3:07 pm 
 

killjoy32 wrote:on a lighter note, away from Chainmail problems etc, buy some of Rob Kuntz's rares. no shilling or dodgyness going on there :)


Very cool stuff, indeed, and I'm really looking forward to having that map in my hands!

For what it's worth, I pointed the seller to the Shady Dealers thread, but haven't heard back from him since then.

Copies of the emails I received from this seller, in reverse chronological order (I've removed a few words that don't affect the main points, just to hide the identities of some of you guys who also corresponded with him):

Well, now...I am flooded with  "private sales" offers.  If my Paypal account is not frozen as well,  why not go for the outside offers.  I should have considered more  seriously.  This is a strange item, far more sought after than seems  reasonable.  I hope you did not make some kind of complaint.


I am unsure what happened but if you like I will relist after my  suspension.   They accused me of shill bidding, which I do not what  that is.


Meaning no insult, I'd prefer to let the auction run and if it  sells  for less so be it.  I am unsure if I can feel comfortable  ending an  auction while a legitimate bid is in play. I told you I  am old  fashioned.  I do appreciate the offer and communication.


- NOTE:  I made him a private offer of $650 at the start of the auction, but haven't made any offers since the auction was taken down.  After he refused my offer, I positioned myself as the top bidder.  


You make a generous offer but I do not know how to withdraw an   item  already on the slate.

I'd much rather this piece go to a serious collector rather  than  a  reseller like ... whom hinted at  the same.  .....

I know you are serious collector by the items you have  purchased  in  the last month or so, which are revealed in your  feedback  rankings  for awhile...

... I am an historical miniature wargamer from the  old   school and though I had many opportunities to do so, I  never   purchased many fantasy games.  We all knew and know  Gygax but  were  and are more interested in the historical.

Every item I have was purchased by me at a regional/local   convention  or hobby store.


The only correspondence before this was requests for scans and high res digital photographs, which he sent right away, and which looked great.


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