Deadlord--is there usually a rule-of-thumb regarding XP's where a player should gain only one level per adventure; or something like a player can earn XP's up to just below going up a second level (or is that dependent on something else)?

Memories probably a bit dodgey...

When you had enough experience for advancement to the next level, wasn't there an obscure guideline (not rule) that you needed to seek out an NPC of higher grade (I think 2 levels higher), to hone your skills to be able to get the higher level also, hence you couldn't suddenly get extra hp/spells etc in the middle of a crawl?

Thanks B, anyone else'e thoughts on it as well - if it was used and the best way they handled it.
I think it makes a kind of sense, but the practicalities of it were very hard.
One of our Dms tried, but it ended up being a pain in the arse.
There is a lot of opportunity for roleplaying but it would depend on the depth you wanted to take the realism aspect to.
We just wanted to get out there and get our hands dirty at that stage - eager low level characters taking on the world.

In my campaigns, exp. was toted up at the conclusion of the adventure, not in the middle. That way, I sort of anticipated the training thing that we put into the DMG.

After all, how did you rationalize some PC running around looking to kill just three more orcs, or 4 goblins, or two fleeglebuntzels or whatever so that all of a sudden, in the middle of the third room entered on the second level explored, you got tougher? That was absurd. C'mon, you mean that halfway through fighting off a band of goblins you got better because your EPmeter hit an arbitrary number? Really... give me a break.

Kaskoid wrote:In my campaigns, exp. was toted up at the conclusion of the adventure, not in the middle. That way, I sort of anticipated the training thing that we put into the DMG.

After all, how did you rationalize some PC running around looking to kill just three more orcs, or 4 goblins, or two fleeglebuntzels or whatever so that all of a sudden, in the middle of the third room entered on the second level explored, you got tougher? That was absurd. C'mon, you mean that halfway through fighting off a band of goblins you got better because your EPmeter hit an arbitrary number? Really... give me a break.

How do you rationalize ANY sudden jump in multiple abilities, at any time? Why would it be at the end of an adventure? The PC retires to a tavern to rest after killing orcs, and suddenly realizes he is better/stronger/faster? This is exactly why I developed a skill-based system. PC's CAN gain abilities on the spot, but only in the skill they are currently using. They don't gain 10 HP, +1 to attacks and damage, and the ability to summon giant butterflies all at once. That throws realism out the door no matter WHEN they acquire the abilities, if they are all acquired simultaneously.
In the end, I think each DM and player group has to go by what Gygax intended: the rules are GUIDELINES, not dogma. If someone wants to allow a PC to go from level 1 to 7, so be it, as long as the group is enjoying the game.

Kaskoid wrote:In my campaigns, exp. was toted up at the conclusion of the adventure, not in the middle. That way, I sort of anticipated the training thing that we put into the DMG.

After all, how did you rationalize some PC running around looking to kill just three more orcs, or 4 goblins, or two fleeglebuntzels or whatever so that all of a sudden, in the middle of the third room entered on the second level explored, you got tougher? That was absurd. C'mon, you mean that halfway through fighting off a band of goblins you got better because your EPmeter hit an arbitrary number? Really... give me a break.

         Years ago, after running through L1 and tallying experience one night, one of my brother's characters was about 50 Exp pts of of going up a level. Everyone else in the party had leveled except for him, he was pleading with me to send a couple of orcs or skeletons against him so he could go up.  I explained that it didn't make "game sense" to have a couple of creatures lurch out of the shadows of Restenford just so he could grab some experience pts; but soon the other members got in the whining so I gave in, as long as it was his player alone in just the condition he was now (no resting and getting new spells).  I believe he was a cleric, I sent a couple of skeletons against him.  His turn failed, then the skeletons proceded to beat the living crap out of him!   I don't think he hit them once. They just kicked the snot out of him and left him lying in the dirt outside the tavern in Restenford.  I let the other party members find him before he bled to death, at this point we were all laughing our ass off although my brother was so pissed I remember he just grabbed up his books and left in a huff (he thinks it's funny now though with 20 years to think back on it....)  Anyway, no one ever asked me for such a special favor ever again (the group was quite superstitious, if something you did got your clocked cleaned against all odds everyone else avoided it also...).
    I never used training as described in the books, I just figured that was non-game stuff that was boring to roleplay, so I'd say something like "Your mentor teaches you some new spells, you are now 5th level". I did use the idea of mentors quite a bit, a grizzled old fighter or scholarly mage that would take the party of characters under his wing and "teach" them stuff about life.  They would never actually go on adventures, but they would have advice about how to fight monsters, they might have a +1 dagger or set of platemail squirreled away to loan to the party, or minor curing powers to help out the party in need. After about 5-7th level they were experienced enough not to have to rely on a mentor (as well as being higher level at that time) so they would fade into the background, I did have a few memorable storylines involving mentors.
  I like Deadlord's idea; I wish I had thought of that during the day.  Sounds like a lot of extra work though that I would have been too lazy to do.  But I do like the idea; if your thief doesn't Hide in Shadows the entire adventure, why does this suddenly get better while his other skills he might have used don't?  I did have a somewhat similar rule, I said a fighter character (or any character, actually) that wanted proficiency in a new weapon had to USE that weapon in combat at least once (with all the attendent negs).  I mean, suddenly the Fighter who has never even SEEN a halberd can whip one around like an expert?  I know it's a fantasy game, but still....

Mike B.

Just re-discoverd this old thread while looking for something else..some fun stories on there, thought some of the "newbies" here might want to read.  Anyone else got any "back in the day" tales?????

Mike B.

The first D&D campaign group I joined with was right outside of college. It was a friend of my older brother [He who introduced me to D&D in 1979 - Thanks John]. This was around 1989 or so...

The first character I played in that group was a 9th level cleric of Dionysus, Sheldon of Budwisr. A few weeks into the campaign, we pulled from the cursed deck of many things.

I chose to draw twice:
1) removal of all magic items
2) Donjon - soul stripped from the body.

Am I lucky or what...  
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As to training goes... In this home campaign (with these same group of guys), we're now running a different group of lower level characters, where you pay for training, where it is (like) 750 gp per level. In a campaign where gold is... limited... where you have to sell your precious magic items to pay for training...

At the lower levels, this is suprisingly appealing to me.

Ah yes, the training rules in the DMG.  BITD (at this point, over 25 years ago), as a DM I tended to be a rules lawyer, and since it was in the DMG, it was law.

So I'm DMing a party of low-level characters (generally 2d level, I think).  They finish an adventure heavier on slaughter than treasure, and at least two of them get enough XP to go up a level, but don't have enough cash to pay for the training.  (Under the rules in the DMG, if you're second level, and the quality of your play is scored as only fair, you would have to pay 9000 GP for the training to go to third level.)  So, just to be able to pay for the training for the XP earned in one adventure, I have to run them through another adventure, a little heavier on treasure.

Problem is, for many of the classes, it takes less than 9000 XP to go from third to fourth level.  Yep -- by running them through another adventure with enough gold to pay for the training from 2d to 3d level, a couple actually made 4th level, which meant they needed even more money they didn't have . . . .

And that was the end of my use of the "pay for training rules".