red_bus wrote:I've seen the balance go too far the other way though - people boasting "oh, I've played for six years and we never got past fifth level" etc etc...  Which is kind of sad that some people never got the experience of playing characters up to higher levels.  

I have played in some very long running campaigns, where characters have managed (eventually) to rise to 14th- 17th levels, or even on occasions higher.  Good play at this levels tends to be much more on a diplomatic level with less 'dungeoneering' and more negotiating between sovereigns.  It is exciting to be running around at first level where even a single goblin can kill, and - run right - it can be fun at higher levels too.

     When it all comes down to it, you have to blend the wants of the players with your vision.  I've had groups that enjoyed tactical battles consisting of hundreds of foes at once; groups that enjoyed puzzles, tricks and traps; groups that like interactions with NPCs more than the actual adventuring, etc.  Likewise, some groups of players are more suited to playing higher level characters.  I always find it somehow annoying when a DM smugly brags about never having had an adventuring group over 5th level....what, are you killing them all off, or are you just too stupid to DM a higher level crawl?  It's like a badge of honor to wipe out your players? If they are having fun getting their characters destroyed I guess that's fine; most people I've gamed with the last 30 years or so dont' find that an enjoyable way of spending their time.
  If higher level play wasn't intended by the games creators, then why does the 1st edition AD&D PHB I have show spell selection for mages and clerics going up to 29th level? Why not just cap it off at say 18th level?  Not that I advocate higher level play like that....I've never actually been able to shepherd a party to even half those heights myself, but if that is someone's cup of tea...honestly, I never even had NPC baddies of that level, I think the highest level enemy spellcasters I ever ran were 18th level Liches (and even then keeping their spells straight was murder).
  This being said, our campaigns usually top characters out at 10-12th level.  The group I am running now consists of the original players I ran back in the late 70's and their original group; the characters are in the 12th-13th range with their henchmen about 6-7th level or so.  We only use them to game maybe a couple times a year or less (sometimes several years will go by without using this group). I have to say as a DM it is very challenging when you are dming so many high level characters with so many different powers; not to mention the NPC baddies who also have their own sets of spells, powers, magic items, etc.  I'm running them through a modified Against the Giants: Return to Geoff, and even by whittling the numbers of characters and henchmen down, it's hard to challenge a properly prepared and intelligent group of players.  I've managed to balance the adventures by bringing in quite a few shamans/witchdoctors among the enemy giants, but it's a good battle of wits whenever I play these guys and if I'm not up on my game they can thrash my best laid plans very quickly  
  While some of the most memorable gaming moments and fun I've had are the challenging lower level adventures, it is fun to explore the full range of powers available to higher level characters....after all, if you have dmed properly and the players have paid their dues, they deserve the rewards.

Mike B.

Been a while since I played 1E, but wouldn't any extra XP be lost? I would think 3rd level would be the best you would get.

The question of the Deck of Many Things above shouldn't have been how the DM should have handled it...it should have been what in Sam Hill was a DM putting a Deck of Many things in an adventure with 1st level characters?

Unfortunately, all too many DM's just followed the simplistic tables published in the early books.

It's too bad it wasn't until recently (the last decade or so) that there has actually been published material on how to run a game, how to create a dungeon properly, how to roleplay monsters and bad guys, essentially how to be a good DM.

A great deal of what I published in DRAGON Magazine was just that kind of stuff. Unfortunately, when I left the mag, my successors let that type of materal die out.

If higher level play wasn't intended by the games creators, then why does the 1st edition AD&D PHB I have show spell selection for mages and clerics going up to 29th level?

In keeping with my inflation gripes, this I thought was obvious; I know we addressd it in articles published and at seminars at the cons: that stuff was for NPCs so that the PCs didn't take over and ruin the campaigns.

When the PCs just got too all powerful, the skies opened up and they were enthroned as demigods and retired. It was more fun getting them there than it was once you got there. The fun was in the struggle to survive and advance. The enjoyment was in the problem solving and the battles of the wit and intuition, not slaying hordes of crudbag badguys.

Deadlord--is there usually a rule-of-thumb regarding XP's where a player should gain only one level per adventure; or something like a player can earn XP's up to just below going up a second level (or is that dependent on something else)?

Memories probably a bit dodgey...

When you had enough experience for advancement to the next level, wasn't there an obscure guideline (not rule) that you needed to seek out an NPC of higher grade (I think 2 levels higher), to hone your skills to be able to get the higher level also, hence you couldn't suddenly get extra hp/spells etc in the middle of a crawl?

Thanks B, anyone else'e thoughts on it as well - if it was used and the best way they handled it.
I think it makes a kind of sense, but the practicalities of it were very hard.
One of our Dms tried, but it ended up being a pain in the arse.
There is a lot of opportunity for roleplaying but it would depend on the depth you wanted to take the realism aspect to.
We just wanted to get out there and get our hands dirty at that stage - eager low level characters taking on the world.

In my campaigns, exp. was toted up at the conclusion of the adventure, not in the middle. That way, I sort of anticipated the training thing that we put into the DMG.

After all, how did you rationalize some PC running around looking to kill just three more orcs, or 4 goblins, or two fleeglebuntzels or whatever so that all of a sudden, in the middle of the third room entered on the second level explored, you got tougher? That was absurd. C'mon, you mean that halfway through fighting off a band of goblins you got better because your EPmeter hit an arbitrary number? Really... give me a break.

Kaskoid wrote:In my campaigns, exp. was toted up at the conclusion of the adventure, not in the middle. That way, I sort of anticipated the training thing that we put into the DMG.

After all, how did you rationalize some PC running around looking to kill just three more orcs, or 4 goblins, or two fleeglebuntzels or whatever so that all of a sudden, in the middle of the third room entered on the second level explored, you got tougher? That was absurd. C'mon, you mean that halfway through fighting off a band of goblins you got better because your EPmeter hit an arbitrary number? Really... give me a break.

How do you rationalize ANY sudden jump in multiple abilities, at any time? Why would it be at the end of an adventure? The PC retires to a tavern to rest after killing orcs, and suddenly realizes he is better/stronger/faster? This is exactly why I developed a skill-based system. PC's CAN gain abilities on the spot, but only in the skill they are currently using. They don't gain 10 HP, +1 to attacks and damage, and the ability to summon giant butterflies all at once. That throws realism out the door no matter WHEN they acquire the abilities, if they are all acquired simultaneously.
In the end, I think each DM and player group has to go by what Gygax intended: the rules are GUIDELINES, not dogma. If someone wants to allow a PC to go from level 1 to 7, so be it, as long as the group is enjoying the game.

Kaskoid wrote:In my campaigns, exp. was toted up at the conclusion of the adventure, not in the middle. That way, I sort of anticipated the training thing that we put into the DMG.

After all, how did you rationalize some PC running around looking to kill just three more orcs, or 4 goblins, or two fleeglebuntzels or whatever so that all of a sudden, in the middle of the third room entered on the second level explored, you got tougher? That was absurd. C'mon, you mean that halfway through fighting off a band of goblins you got better because your EPmeter hit an arbitrary number? Really... give me a break.

         Years ago, after running through L1 and tallying experience one night, one of my brother's characters was about 50 Exp pts of of going up a level. Everyone else in the party had leveled except for him, he was pleading with me to send a couple of orcs or skeletons against him so he could go up.  I explained that it didn't make "game sense" to have a couple of creatures lurch out of the shadows of Restenford just so he could grab some experience pts; but soon the other members got in the whining so I gave in, as long as it was his player alone in just the condition he was now (no resting and getting new spells).  I believe he was a cleric, I sent a couple of skeletons against him.  His turn failed, then the skeletons proceded to beat the living crap out of him!   I don't think he hit them once. They just kicked the snot out of him and left him lying in the dirt outside the tavern in Restenford.  I let the other party members find him before he bled to death, at this point we were all laughing our ass off although my brother was so pissed I remember he just grabbed up his books and left in a huff (he thinks it's funny now though with 20 years to think back on it....)  Anyway, no one ever asked me for such a special favor ever again (the group was quite superstitious, if something you did got your clocked cleaned against all odds everyone else avoided it also...).
    I never used training as described in the books, I just figured that was non-game stuff that was boring to roleplay, so I'd say something like "Your mentor teaches you some new spells, you are now 5th level". I did use the idea of mentors quite a bit, a grizzled old fighter or scholarly mage that would take the party of characters under his wing and "teach" them stuff about life.  They would never actually go on adventures, but they would have advice about how to fight monsters, they might have a +1 dagger or set of platemail squirreled away to loan to the party, or minor curing powers to help out the party in need. After about 5-7th level they were experienced enough not to have to rely on a mentor (as well as being higher level at that time) so they would fade into the background, I did have a few memorable storylines involving mentors.
  I like Deadlord's idea; I wish I had thought of that during the day.  Sounds like a lot of extra work though that I would have been too lazy to do.  But I do like the idea; if your thief doesn't Hide in Shadows the entire adventure, why does this suddenly get better while his other skills he might have used don't?  I did have a somewhat similar rule, I said a fighter character (or any character, actually) that wanted proficiency in a new weapon had to USE that weapon in combat at least once (with all the attendent negs).  I mean, suddenly the Fighter who has never even SEEN a halberd can whip one around like an expert?  I know it's a fantasy game, but still....

Mike B.