If this is already somewhere else, I apologize.

In another thread, I said that when I started playing in 1978 there were only a few books (Monster Manual, DM Guide, Player's Handbook, Fiend Folio, maybe one or two others) to get started, plus a lot of new modules every year.  To a newcomer like me, the rules were overwhelming at times, but I did have fun.

Now, after 32 years, these are some of the books you need just to start:

>>  Monster Manual I, II, III, AND IV;
>>  DM's Guide I AND II;
>>  Players' Handbook I AND II (maybe there's a III somewhere??)
>>  Plus innumerable books with rules for this, that, and every conceivable situation--all very expensive ($35-45 each).
And very few new modules in a year.

AAARRRGGGHHH!!!!!!

Makes one wish for the somewhat simpler D&D / AD&D 1st edition.

When I went to play the 30th-anniversary game a couple of years back, I expected [/i]some changes---but NOTHING like the huge number of books it now seems to take.  It reminds me of the IRS Tax Code!!

The one thing I thought always was that I was one of a dwindling few who preferred 1E and even early 2E to the current 3.5E;  I gues I'm wrong about that!!

To be fair, you really only need the three core books, same as 1e AD&D. I'm running a 3e game of Ptolus (the excellent, if very VERY expensive city source book by Monte Cook), and we're actually having a great time, believe it or not.

I still prefer the older edition though. I cut my teeth on 1e AD&D BITD. And I'm going to be running a 1e AD&D game at GenCon SoCal. I'll even be using the old goldenrod charsheets! w00t!

Ah, a thread for the old farts..

In the spring of 1978, a friend from Maryland got me to buy the Holmes boxed set at a local hobby store and said he would run us through a game.  Apparantly everyone up in the northeast played this game.  We got to roll up our characters using THREE six sided dice, although the numbers were allowed to be shifted around.  I miraculously rolled an 18 (something like 1 in 300 chance?) although all the rest of the scores were 12 and under.  All the other players didn't have an ability over 15 on any score.  I had to ROLL my hit points and got a six (no, no standard HP for 1st level back then). By pooling ALL our starting money, we were able to outfit my strapping fighter (named Conan, of course). with a Halberd and leather armor (The thinking of course that my 18 strength and 6 hit points would make me the powerhouse of the party, and one swipe of my mighty halberd would destroy anything in our path).  Everyone else in the party was armed with daggers, slings and stones.  I think one guy, the thief, didn't even wear any armor.  The mage had one spell, which I seem to think was magic missile. I had also gotten the original "Wizzards & Warriors" LEAD (gasp) mini set, which we used for our figures.  The only other items were pencils, paper and those craptastic poly dice that came with the box set and fell apart like a stick of butter in the oven.
     Thus equipped and outfitted with hirelings we made our way into B1 Search Into the Unknown, where promptly our entire party except for me and one hireling were killed past the long hallway in the first room by a group of kobolds. Of course, we had a blast and were hooked...with only the Holmes blue box set at hand.
    You have to understand, when I walk into the local gaming store and see the loads of splat books, $50 hardcovers, $100+ campaign setting books with gigantic fold out color maps with scratch and sniff, $100+ gigantic plastic minis, 5000 varieties of dice including gold leaf ruby encrusted titantium powerseller inserts, and hear the locals discussing their 29th level Bard/half yuanti/Tumbler/Blackguard/bionic caveman with the kung fu grip, it is EXACTLY the same concept as some old fella telling me how he had to walk to school 20 miles uphill both ways in the driving sleet.
 Back in the day, you either used the basic white set with supplements (although no one I knew did it that way), the Holmes basic box set with a mixture of the original D&D rules and supplements (I knew a few who did that), or the brand spanking new kick ass Advanced Dungeons & Dragons hardbacks Players Handbook, Monster Manual and DMG (although whenwe started the DMG wasn't even released for awhile).  That was all you needed or wanted with an occasional letter series module  to liven up the home brew.  
    I don't think things were necessarily better, or more fun.  I know a lot of the older items I detested (I absolutely HATED the chipping poly dice that came with the boxed sets) and that I would have loved to have (Dwarven forge, minis that didn'tlook like a lump of lead, computer programs to print out character sheets, etc), but I do know that we played for hours and days with nothing else. I will admit some of the annoyance with 3rd ed is JEALOUSY that the guys starting into RPGs today have so much freaking stuff that I would have KILLED to have back inthe day.
  I guess at the bottom of it all, I'm STILL pissed my first DM wouldn't let me roll exceptional strength for my 18 strength after I pointed out the rule to him in the new 1st edition Players Handbook.

Mike B.

COMING SOON to a Forum near you!!!!


For my first BITD reminiscence/rant, I will address the Too Many Books/Too Much stuff question from my WBITD perspective and the guiding ethos of the original RPGing.

                Narratio resumeter....

An interesting exercise in selective memory.  

To be fair...and to be accurate....AD&D was not exactly a three book game.

A list of the 1st edition hardbacks might include:

Monster Manual
Monster Manual II
Fiend Folio
Players Handbook
Dungeon Master's Guide
Unearthed Arcana
Gods and Demi-gods
Wilderness Survival Guide
Dungeoneers Survival Guide
Manual of the Planes
Oriental Adventures
Dragonlance
Greyhawk Adventures

These books were commonly supplemented in D&D games by:

Dungeons and Dragons (Holmes Boxed Set)
The Arduin Grimoire (All three original publications)
Dragon Magazine (With hundreds of pages of photocopied text with alternative classes and new rules that eventually required the publication of four (4) Dragon compendiums and Unearthed Arcana.

The game was also commonly infected with notions from Runequest, Tunnels and Trolls and many other D&D imitators.  

(This is the same forum that includes interesting memories of some of the nutty things that happened in David Hargraves' games...and that is remembered as a good thing.)

Gamers also mixed in adventures and bits of rules garnered from
all four (4) Mentzer Dungeons and Dragons boxed sets....which culminated in a silly boxed set featuring lliterally god-like characters that were so high level they had to go adventuring in their underwear.

When one factors in the monsters, spells, magic items and special rules hidden in the pages of the umpteen million modules......

It is simply dishonest to remember "back in the day" when there were "only three books."  It is just not true.

Worse, Unearthed Arcana and the million-and-one new "NPC Classes" (yeah, right...NPC) and special rules sets made 1st Edition AD&D into one of the most confusing mazes of house rules and local compromises that modern society is likely to ever see in a game set.  Each of these new rules was designed to sell magazines and books...and game balance be damned.

By comparision, the 3.5 game system is incredibly clean and well considered.  When one considers just the 3.5 core rules published by WOTC, the system seems remarkably compact compared to 1st Edition AD&D.

Further, the "wierd" mix of character races that is commonly cited on this forum is a distortion of actual game play.  It no more represents actual game play than Mazes and Monsters represented AD&D.  

Ironically, the derisive comments posted here sound very much like the sarcastic comments about AD&D one might have expected from non-gamers BITD.  It sounds like jokes that a standup comedian might have made BITD...and you would have been outraged.

In practice, the 3.5 system is incredibly strong and balanced....especially compared to AD&D.  Characters can and do rise to high level in 3.5 just as they did in AD&D.  The difference is that the monsters themselves are powerful enough and flexible enough to challenge higher level characters.

Hey, fun is fun.  I like making extreme statements about "youngin's" or "kids these days" just as much as the next grownup.  Dis on the new game all you want.  Just remember that you are being pig-headed.  

Mr Shipley - you make a very fair and reasoned argument - begone, you have no place here!!

You're right though, I guess that we all have fond memories of the games bitd and our brains edit out the nonsense and crap that no doubt went along with all the heroic fantasy.

I think that I'm not convinced by 3E (3.5E) because of all the superfluous stuff - though having read the 3 core rule books I still  do think that it is a bit rules heavy. I have said in the past that it does pander to 'power gamers' though to be fair I saw my fair share of those back in the eighties, so it shouldn't be too relevant. (Anyway in combat I had trouble remembering anything past the wonderful concept of THACO so feats would have left me floundering aimlessly!!)

Someone on here has in their sig something along the lines of 'there are no bad rules systems only bad players' (It might have been you Mark!?)  - perhaps there is something in that that some of us old boys would do well to remember.

All of that having been said I have to admit that 3E's penchant toward half-this/half-that/half-the other makes jokes and digs just irresistable - I'll try and stop but I don't think I'll be able to help myself

Thanks for the voice of reason though Mark - I hope you know that I'm not taking this too seriously - I haven't thrown a dice in anger in years so I really shouldn't even be allowed an opinion!!

Carl

The old vs new debate again   Been a few months since we did this

I for one am an old boy, probably older than most of the posters here and I play 3.5   That's right surprise surprise!!

I have played them all, OD&D, 1st, 2nd, basic, 2.5, 3.0, 3.5.

I think the worst of the systems was the 2.5 (2nd ed with the players options books)  totally off balance game play and power gaming.

The new edition is a very different game from 1st ed.  

1st ed was revolutionary, a new game concept, uterly fantastic. It is my 2nd favortite RPG

My favortite is 3.5, totally flexible, very well balenced and as complicated or simple as you would like it to be.  No two characters are exactly the same.

Anyway after you gronards go on and bash 3.5 for the next 20-30 posts just know that things are different know than the seventies and eighties.  Video games, movies, games and all forms of entertainment have changed.  The music we listened to is now called classic rock (in my day my father called it pots banging beside your head ).  The new generations need updated enterainment to fit in with there own unique needs.

Later
Jeff

[quote="bclarkie"]Thats funny, i can very clearly recall playing AD&D with only the PHB, the MM, and the DMG BITD.  The other TSR hardcovers that were produced later on after the original 3 hardcovers were not required for play, they were simply supplemental.  quote]

Exactly.

The same is even more true of the 3.5 core rule books.

Why the double standard?

i have nothing personal against 3E/3.5E. i have tried it and just dont like how it feels. simple as that. i won't say it sucks or anything, just not my thing.

BITD, i couldnt afford all the books and i bought them as and when i could afford to.

i played and had my own PHB and character sheets (the orange/yellow looking ones - always my fave).

DMing, i had DMG, PHB, MM, FF and a rough looking Rogues Gallery for quick NPCs when i needed one. thats all i used.

what i had worked just fine and i never really felt the need to have more. even when i bought more books, i pretty much still kept to the core of what i had and only rarely looked for something elsewhere.

Al

That's OK, Al, I'll say it sucks for you.
I don't think it's too rules-heavy. You just do what you want, when you want. Fight a storm giant with a 2nd level character? No problem. I swing 7 times (using my Eyeamgawd feat) and do 22,412 damage.