Character Info High Level Games/Errata from the Expert Set?
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Post Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 2:12 pm 
 

I have an Expert Set (dark blue box, NOT the Erol Otus version) with an additional sheet of paper entitled Character Information for High Level Games. (basic info for adventures above 14th level).  It also contains the errata.  Product number is:  1012XXX0501

How come I don't recognize this?  I've had many Expert Sets and don't recall ever seeing it before . . . it's not listed on the Acaeum . . . not listed on the TSR archive.

To all appearances, it is a 5th print set.  Have others seen this?  Is it common?  Have the other dozen sets I've had just been "missing" them?  :?:


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Post Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 8:08 pm 
 

How about a scan?

Any chance it's a page cut out of a Dragon magazine?

Edit: Oops - you mean there's a product number for just the errata sheet?

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Post Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 10:14 pm 
 

A scan would be a good thingâ„¢ if only so we can see what's what.



  

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Post Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 10:25 pm 
 

Here's a scan:  (Notice also, copyright of 1985 - last copyright I see listed on the Expert Set is 1983).

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Post Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 10:40 pm 
 

*nevermind this post, I realized what that is*


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Post Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 10:46 pm 
 

Looking further, it could actually be something from the Master Set.  The Master Set came out in 1985 and it also had a product code of 1021. In which ccase it would not be the first time that there was a transposition of numbers on one of thier books, i.e the map from DL2-Dragons of Flame has a product code that matches up from DL3-Dragons of Hope, if you remember that.


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Post Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 11:52 pm 
 

Beyondthebreach wrote:Here's a scan:  (Notice also, copyright of 1985 - last copyright I see listed on the Expert Set is 1983).


So, it says "Character Information for High Level Games" and "above level 14", but the information in most of those tables only goes up to level 14. So, it's actually revised lower level information for use in conjunction with the Companion & Masters Set?

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Post Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2006 7:31 am 
 

bclarkie wrote:Looking further, it could actually be something from the Master Set.  The Master Set came out in 1985 and it also had a product code of 1021. In which ccase it would not be the first time that there was a transposition of numbers on one of thier books, i.e the map from DL2-Dragons of Flame has a product code that matches up from DL3-Dragons of Hope, if you remember that.


I see what you're saying . . . but I still think this is from an Expert Set.  The reason being, if you read the top paragraphs and the Errata, it definitely points to the Expert Set.  The errata is for two sections in the rulebook.


zhowar wrote:
So, it says "Character Information for High Level Games" and "above level 14", but the information in most of those tables only goes up to level 14. So, it's actually revised lower level information for use in conjunction with the Companion & Masters Set?


The "Rules for High Level Games" are contained within the first two paragraphs in the top section.  The rest is just reprinted Expert Charts.


Examing this sheet, I can tell it is not perforated, nor has it been torn from another book.  

Come on now . . . does no one else have an opinion?  Even verifying that your 5th print set doesn't have one is something.   :D


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Post Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2006 8:08 am 
 

Well my 5th doesn't have this and I bought it new in SW though it was in the 90s. Of note though, the only difference from the Acaeum site is that my set had multiple colored dice, also no crayon - nor need of one.

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Post Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2006 8:38 am 
 

Beyondthebreach wrote: The "Rules for High Level Games" are contained within the first two paragraphs in the top section.  The rest is just reprinted Expert Charts.


But if you look at the first paragraph, you'll see it says "Magic-User and Thief Saving Throws are not revised". And if you look at the Saving Throw tables in the right column, M-U and T are missing. This implies that the other tables are revised tables. I don't have a Mentzer Expert set anymore so I can't do a detailed comparison. Anybody else?

I'm going to post a link to this thread over in the "Classic D&D" section on Dragonsfoot. Some folks there are experts on the differences between the Moldvay/Cook; Mentzer; and Rules Cyclopedia sets.

Here's the DF thread I just started:
http://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewt ... 422#348422

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Post Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2006 10:00 am 
 

I don't see any differences between the tables listed in this mystery sheet and those in my 5th print booklet.  

I'm missing pages 29-38 so I can't tell if all of the page references match up.  I don't recall ever removing pages but the flow of the text implies the center pages were meant to be removed so I assume I must have 20 years ago.

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Post Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2006 10:12 am 
 

Here is some information from a Dragonsfoot thread that seems relevant:

Alex wrote:Expert - Very few errata.  There is a dwarven or halfling saving throw that differs from the class description and the reference table in the middle of the book.  There are 2 versions of Mentzer expert!  The differences are numerous, but confined to the spells-per-day, thief skills, and saving throw tables.



This information (spells, thief skills, saving throw tables) is strikingly similar to the information presented in the Errata sheet above.

The Acaeum Expert Set page lists two different printings of the Mentzer Expert Set (4th & 5th print), *but* indicates the rulebook is the same in each. So perhaps the Acaeum page does not include complete print info for this product.

Perhaps TSR first included the Errata Sheet with the rulebook, and then incorporated the Errata into the rulebook?

Netrodent, did you carefully check all of the numbers in each table for differences? If so, you could have a rulebook from after the Errata was incorporated.

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Post Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2006 10:40 am 
 

zhowar wrote:Here is some information from a Dragonsfoot thread that seems relevant:




This information (spells, thief skills, saving throw tables) is strikingly similar to the information presented in the Errata sheet above.

The Acaeum Expert Set page lists two different printings of the Mentzer Expert Set (4th & 5th print), *but* indicates the rulebook is the same in each. So perhaps the Acaeum page does not include complete print info for this product.

Perhaps TSR first included the Errata Sheet with the rulebook, and then incorporated the Errata into the rulebook?

Netrodent, did you carefully check all of the numbers in each table for differences? If so, you could have a rulebook from after the Errata was incorporated.


Could definitely be it. Foul does even indicate that the fifth print is much harder to find than the fourth print, so that could be why no ones really noticed until now. :)


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Post Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2006 2:22 pm 
 

http://i8.tinypic.com/25jfvop.jpg

Well most of the Errata is in my print, except for the Character HIt Rolls columns.

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Post Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2006 2:50 pm 
 

I think some of the errata is fairly subtle - like on the Elf experience table.  It seems the level titles are now divided with a / (slash).  A 4th level Elf is not a Hero Magician, he is a Hero/Magician.


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Post Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2006 2:58 pm 
 

Beyondthebreach wrote:I think some of the errata is fairly subtle - like on the Elf experience table.  It seems the level titles are now divided with a / (slash).  A 4th level Elf is not a Hero Magician, he is a Hero/Magician.


(Where's Frank M. when ya' need him.   :D )


My book doesn't have the / between the names on the elf table

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Post Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2006 6:08 pm 
 

Beyondthebreach wrote:(Where's Frank M. when ya' need him.)


Hey, I just wrote it; I don't collect it, and I didn't keep track of what they did with it afterward.  :wink:

  


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Post Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2006 8:38 pm 
 

All I can suggest is that the sheet seems familiar to me.  I think I've seen it before, but I definitely don't have one on hand at the moment to verify.

It seems economically reasonable that they elected to create an errata sheet rather than a new printing, especially if they still had outstanding stock of the 5th printing.

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Post Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2006 3:45 am 
 

deimos3428 wrote:All I can suggest is that the sheet seems familiar to me.  I think I've seen it before, but I definitely don't have one on hand at the moment to verify.

It seems economically reasonable that they elected to create an errata sheet rather than a new printing, especially if they still had outstanding stock of the 5th printing.


That sounds reasonable as well . . . I guess I'm surprised that between here and DF, only one other person has indicated they have seen this before.  Granted, it may have only been in a few 5th printing box sets and would have been easily thrown away . . .  still.  

As I wrack my brain, I am pretty sure (like 90%) that I saw one several years ago in an Expert Set I sold.   I think I even took it out (maybe trashed it) as I couldn't identify it and didn't want a potential buyer to think it was a page that was ripped out.


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Post Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2006 11:32 am 
 

I guess one question is which of the following Expert Set combinations exist:

(1) 4th print box set, with rulebook (1st version)
(2) 4th print box set, with rulebook (1st version) + errata sheet
(3) 4th print box set, with rulebook (revised)

(4) 5th print box set, with rulebook (1st version)
(5) 5th print box set, with rulebook (1st version) + errata sheet
(6) 5th print box set, with rulebook (revised)

Based on the above posts, Beyondthebreach's set would be #5, and Netrodents would be #6?  

#2 and #3 may not exist at all.

Based on a response in the DF thread, the Errata sheet may also have come in the Companion Set.

Another possibility is that it only came with the Companion Set, but some people stuck the sheet in the Expert Set.

Just throwing out ideas here. Please correct me if am wrong.

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