How to handle them? (sub-topic of "Shady Dealers")
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Post Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 2:35 am 
 

ciao guys! i start a new thread instead of cueing on the usual shady dealers because here i'd like to write about how to prevent to be f...k by shady dealers! (not only histories of facts yet happened...)



here's my latest story:

i left a bid (the minimum) on this item...




** expired eBay auction **




...i took care of checking out special policies of the seller and, as it is stated in the auction, there was nothig of particular except these lines:



Return Policy Details:  If there's a problem, I'm sure we can work it out.  

Due to recent events, International customers must also pay for tracking and insurance.




i passed over the 2nd sentence since it was not a proble to me: my item was worth less than 4 USD... insurance for it would have been more expensive than the object itself! :D ...and moreover the seller wrote that he was available to work out any problem!

my only fault was not asking to the seller about S&H before the end of the auction (as i usually do, not this time unfortunately)...



nobody outbid me and i finally got the item... (i wasn't interested too much in it but for 3,25 i cannot cry for the waste of money...)



what upset me was the invoice i received from the seller: in it, i found 31 USD of shipping costs  8O  8O  8O  ...USPS Global Express Mail ( i can understand that it is the best way to ship items, but it is roughly 10 times the price of the auction!!!) and, what's worse, this sentence:



Since tracking and insurance is no available to Italy, Paypal payments will not be accepted, only cash, checks, money order or wire transfer. sorry for the troubles. global express 31.00, airmail 19.50, economy surface 15.50



...ah-ahhh! i wonder why there was no reference on this in the description of the auction... anyway, i replied him that:



1) the item had a price so low that it was outrageous pay for it 31 of shipping, and moreover insurance



2) he didn't write anything on this special rule that states "NO PAYPAL" to intl bidders... and this was not correct at all! ...and moreover i didn't care if the item is not trackable!



i got the reply on my complains this morning:



due to recent problems with paypal and the post office.
paypal payments from contries with out tracking and insurance will not be accepted.

paypal payment for ebay good must have tracking, otherwise if it gets lost in the mail, paypal can force me to refund the money, even though i mailed it and the customer did not want the optional insurance.

since there is no tracking available, cash, check money order or wire transfer is prefeered payment from italy.

if you want to use paypal for payment, you must send it as quasi/cash and not connected to the ebay purchase or any mention of the ebay puchase in any way.
that price for shipping would be economy surface letter for $7.75 us dollars. that take about 8 weeks or longer, and if it gets lost, its lost with no recourse.  remember any mention or ties to the ebay purchase and i'll refuse the payment.

im sick and tired of the the postoffice and paypal and ebays crap and will not put up with it any more.




now, it is clear that:



* this seller does want to avoid its responsibilites as a seller of ebay! if there's a rule that upholds (in a minimum way) buyers, then he wants to exclude it forcing buyers to accept all the responsability!



* US shipping, as usual, is not clear to me! i believe that the weight of the item is not so much in order to get 7,75 USD for surface... am i paying his time too or what else?



instead what is not clear to me is:



* what should i do when i read such a message? how can i bear the responsibility to get lost the item??? ...and if the seller doesn't deliver it? as a matter of fact, if he's not responsible anymore, why shouldn't he keep the item and place it a second time within a couple of months?



* how can i calculate the correct shipping fees without knowing the weight of the item?



tnx as usual to everybody!



ciaooo


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Post Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 3:26 am 
 

problem shipping to italy though, is that, it IS the only place i ever have shipping problems and i don;t normally get them....not excusing this guy....but hey you know what i mean...maybe ppl are being extra cautious?

Al



  

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Post Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 5:53 am 
 

$7.75 for surface is a joke.


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Post Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 9:19 am 
 

Not to be a dick or anything, but I don't see what the real problem is. :)  It defintely would have been better if the seller was more forthcoming about the his shipping reuirements to Italy in their auction description, but the problem with that is that  if he states clearly in his auction description exactly what he indicated to you privately, Ebay will take his auction down fro violation of their rules regarding Paypal.   EBay forbids sellers from having anything in thier auction listings about having any rules for buyers using Paypal(I think that in itself is bullsh*t, but that is another story for another day).   I know of several horror stories of sellers shipping to Italy.  As a matter of feact a former member of this forum lost out a $2000 item that was shipped to Italy with no tracking.    I personally have never had a problem with it myself and I do not have the same requirements(especially for such a low value item), but I have heard many stories about packages not arriving in Italy.  Now, I am sure some of those packages have been legitamately lost as no postal service is perfect, but that is where the true problem arrises.  If a buyer files a Paypal dispute, the seller must provide proof of delivery or else Paypal will find in their favor, no questions asked.  In that circumstance, sellers have no way to protect themselves versus unscrupulous buyers who want to claim that they never received an item even if they really did.  In this circumstance, I think that this seller is trying to protect themsleves from being screwed over by unscrupulous buyers.  Maybe you should just email the seller and let them know that sisnce you were unaware of their strict international shipping requirements and see if they would be willing to cancel the transaction.  As long as they agree to void the transaction amicably they can get their fees back from EBay and you do not have to get a NPB strike.

I would like to say that I have bought from Milehighcomics years ago, that they were great to me, and not an ounce shady at all. I simply think that they are concerned with trying to protect themselves from being burned on an untrackable shipment. :)


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Post Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 9:36 am 
 

Hello, Aia.

I've had a few problems shipping to Italy, and receiving from Italy.   Every time an Italian wins one of my auctions, I cringe.  I don't know why it works out that way, but it's the only country I've had problems shipping to and receiving from.  Nothing against Italy; in fact, my family is from Toscana, so I've got a special fondness for the place.

Seems to me, though I may have a faulty memory, that the last item I shipped to Italy was a hard-cover Players Handbook.  I think I spent about $18.00 to send it Global Priority.  There is a reference and/or tracking number on the Global Priority packages, though whether it can be used to track shipments to Italy isn't clear to me.  I asked at the Post Office, and was told that they think it's possible, but weren't sure.  

What about UPS, DHL, or FedEx?  Probably going to cost more than you want to spend, I would guess.

Good luck,
Stephen


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Post Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 9:49 am 
 

Shipping to Italy is expensive. The Airmail quote sounds right though (as its about what I charged for single items there and it is trackable), but then I think you want the cheapest way possible (though also the longest in amount of time to ship). I think Brian said it best about just emailing the seller and see about canceling the transaction.

I'd suspect there would be way more Italians bidding and allowed to bid if their postal system would accept Global Priority, etc like other countries in Europe.

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Post Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 9:51 am 
 

bombadil wrote:Hello, Aia.

I've had a few problems shipping to Italy, and receiving from Italy.   Every time an Italian wins one of my auctions, I cringe.  I don't know why it works out that way, but it's the only country I've had problems shipping to and receiving from.  Nothing against Italy; in fact, my family is from Toscana, so I've got a special fondness for the place.

Seems to me, though I may have a faulty memory, that the last item I shipped to Italy was a hard-cover Players Handbook.  I think I spent about $18.00 to send it Global Priority.  There is a reference and/or tracking number on the Global Priority packages, though whether it can be used to track shipments to Italy isn't clear to me.  I asked at the Post Office, and was told that they think it's possible, but weren't sure.  

What about UPS, DHL, or FedEx?  Probably going to cost more than you want to spend, I would guess.

Good luck,
Stephen


There are so many problems shipping to Italy that the USPS won't sponsor Global priority...it has to be sent airmail or surface, or Global Express which is ridiculous for such an item.  Just try to work it out with the seller, he is obligated to accept Paypal unless he wants his auctions yanked. I personally wouldn't pay that for a marginal item.

Mike B.


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Post Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 9:58 am 
 

I'll add the same as others.  The few problems I've had in my years of eBay sales have ALL been selling to Italy.  :(
That said, your best bet might be to find a friendly US face her on The Acaeum, have it shipped there, and have your friend then ship it to you as cheap as possible.

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Post Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 10:11 am 
 

Global Priority isn't available to Italy and it isn't trackable anyway.  It also can't be insured.  Global Express would cost $27.40 or it could be shipped by Airmail Parcel Post for $17.50 which includes insurance.

There is an often ovelooked way of sending international mail and providing delivery confirmation.  You must send the item by either Airmail Letter Post of Surface Mail Letter post.  (no Global Priority).  Then you get the item sent Registered Mail (this insures the package.)  On top of this, you can add a Return Receipt which mails back the sender confirmation that the package was delivered.  

I have never actually used these options, but I believe they would satisfy Paypal's requirement on trackability/confirmation.  

Registered Mail costs $7.90 and a Return Receipt is $1.85.  Plus postage.  However, the insured amount with registered is only around $45.00.

I just did some investigating (as I type) and it seems that Return Receipt can be added to Parcel Post insured packages for $1.85 . . .  I don't know how come I never realized this before, but it is good information.  I've never had a lost International Mail package . . . but next time I have a package with $100.00 + value, I'm going to make sure to get it added on.

(I'll note, in Italy's defense,  :D  that I have shipped many, many packages there and they have all arrived safely.  In other posts I've mentioned a few tips to help out with shipping to Italy, but I don't feel like typing them again . . .   :) )


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Post Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 10:19 am 
 

Beyondthebreach wrote:There is an often ovelooked way of sending international mail and providing delivery confirmation.  You must send the item by either Airmail Letter Post of Surface Mail Letter post.  (no Global Priority).  Then you get the item sent Registered Mail (this insures the package.)  On top of this, you can add a Return Receipt which mails back the sender confirmation that the package was delivered.


I don't have experience with registered mail or return receipts but I imagine they are treated similiarly to certified mail.  At work (in Canada) we frequently get letters sent from the US by certified mail.  The little cardboard postcard that the mailman is supposed to detach upon delivery to return to the sender is almost always still attached to the letters when we receive them.

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Post Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 10:56 am 
 

I've had a problem or two shipping to Italy, and not the buyer's fault at all; something about the postal system. :/

:idea:

Praps those doing the deliveries are fine unless they get head-butted by surprise...?

  


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Post Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 11:10 am 
 

ExTSR wrote:Praps those doing the deliveries are fine unless they get head-butted by surprise...?


:lol:  :lol:  :lol:


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Post Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 11:21 am 
 

Badmike wrote:
There are so many problems shipping to Italy that the USPS won't sponsor Global priority...it has to be sent airmail or surface, or Global Express which is ridiculous for such an item.  Just try to work it out with the seller, he is obligated to accept Paypal unless he wants his auctions yanked. I personally wouldn't pay that for a marginal item.

Mike B.


The seller is obligated to accept paypal but he must then send it by some trackable method to cover himself such as Global Express and I am guessing Aia doesn't want to pay for that.  

$8 for shipping sounds like he has a couple dollars for a handling fee.  For a 1 pound envelope to Italy sent Surface Letter Post its $4.10 + $1 for an envelope, leaves $3 handling fee?  You many not want to pay his handling fee but there is no way Ebay is going to side with you and say that $3 is an excessive handling charge.  Does anyone know what Ebay would consider an excessive handling fee? $10? $20?

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Post Posted: Sat Aug 19, 2006 2:30 am 
 

ok, here are some replies... my apologies if i was not clear but, as far as i see in your replies, most fo you didn't get the point...
i was not complaining on the italian postal system (which, i know, is a PER-FE-CT shit!), i was focusing on the way the seller doesn't accept his responsibilites... in other words: if you want to be seller and gain money over ebay transaction, then you'd accept that you're running a risk... and this is the risk tied to every business activity (otherwise it wouldn't be a business activity)...

Deadlord39 wrote:$7.75 for surface is a joke.


errr... not a joke indeed: the USPS calc states that for 3 ounces of weight the price should be 4,10! this was the price for the airmail letter!

bclarkie wrote:Not to be a dick or anything, but I don't see what the real problem is.  It defintely would have been better if the seller was more forthcoming about the his shipping reuirements to Italy in their auction description, but the problem with that is that if he states clearly in his auction description exactly what he indicated to you privately, Ebay will take his auction down fro violation of their rules regarding Paypal.


oh! that's the point! you're the only one who got it... and let me say that it'd be correct take the auction down because it is a clear violation!
i know that you're a seller and you'll support this point, but it is not correct unfortunately!
if the seller wanted to be clear avoiding problems of this kind, it was enough adding a statement "wordwide auction not allowed for the italian buyers"... that's all...

bclarkie wrote:EBay forbids sellers from having anything in thier auction listings about having any rules for buyers using Paypal(I think that in itself is bullsh*t, but that is another story for another day). I know of several horror stories of sellers shipping to Italy. As a matter of feact a former member of this forum lost out a $2000 item that was shipped to Italy with no tracking. I personally have never had a problem with it myself and I do not have the same requirements(especially for such a low value item), but I have heard many stories about packages not arriving in Italy. Now, I am sure some of those packages have been legitamately lost as no postal service is perfect, but that is where the true problem arrises. If a buyer files a Paypal dispute, the seller must provide proof of delivery or else Paypal will find in their favor, no questions asked. In that circumstance, sellers have no way to protect themselves versus unscrupulous buyers who want to claim that they never received an item even if they really did. In this circumstance, I think that this seller is trying to protect themsleves from being screwed over by unscrupulous buyers. Maybe you should just email the seller and let them know that sisnce you were unaware of their strict international shipping requirements and see if they would be willing to cancel the transaction. As long as they agree to void the transaction amicably they can get their fees back from EBay and you do not have to get a NPB strike.


i can understand you concerns but, as i previous wrote, you can't reverse on the buyer fault which aren't coming from him... if my country has an awful postal system, i cannot be responsible for this!

bombadil wrote:What about UPS, DHL, or FedEx? Probably going to cost more than you want to spend, I would guess.


it could be a solution, but not for any case: just consider that i bought a simple JG booklet for 3.25 USD... do you think such an item deserve a UPS delivery?

Gus Landt wrote:That said, your best bet might be to find a friendly US face her on The Acaeum, have it shipped there, and have your friend then ship it to you as cheap as possible.


this could be a solution, but, as i already said, it doesn't work out the point i'd like to highlight: if the seller is responsible, he has to be until i have in my hands the item! isn't it?
this method could fit for all those "US only" auction, for instance...

Beyondthebreach wrote:(I'll note, in Italy's defense,  that I have shipped many, many packages there and they have all arrived safely. In other posts I've mentioned a few tips to help out with shipping to Italy, but I don't feel like typing them again . . .  )


just as a confirmation: i have a small amount of FB (about 70)... all of them made on puchases! never sold anything on ebay: for two reasons; 1) i hate ebay policy and i don't want to give them money; 2) my main concern is buying and i have so few things to sell that i arrange auctions within italian guys via mail!
ok, coming back to my FB rating: i haven't 100% because a problem with titan (which is a shady dealer in my eyes)... all the other purchases went perfctly and most of them (more than 90%) were from US... this is just to say that if you pay attention, you reduce risks... if you wanna run big business (and give up with quality of the service in favour of more money), then you'll see the problems will begin to raise up (but not only for shipping to italy!)

ExTSR wrote:I've had a problem or two shipping to Italy, and not the buyer's fault at all; something about the postal system.


oupsss! i forgot what frank wrote... bclarkie was not the only who got the point!  :D

Mars wrote:$8 for shipping sounds like he has a couple dollars for a handling fee. For a 1 pound envelope to Italy sent Surface Letter Post its $4.10 + $1 for an envelope, leaves $3 handling fee? You many not want to pay his handling fee but there is no way Ebay is going to side with you and say that $3 is an excessive handling charge. Does anyone know what Ebay would consider an excessive handling fee? $10? $20?


perfect! i wanna thank Mars for this last post!
now, i'd like to better understand the US postal system indeed... as well as the famous criteria of "excessive fees" stated by ebay!

1) i know since i started doing purchases in US that the most easy and chap way to send small item is AIRLETTER POST... but what are the thresholds for this kind of delivery? is there any weight or size limit?

2) what should i do if a seller charges me a airmail parcel post and then he sends the item with letter post saving up even 75% of the S&H fees???

3) how much do you allow to the seller in terms of flaxibility of the S&H fee? do you allow him to gain a couple of $? do you pay attention or not? or you're strict with it and you don't let him gain neither a cent?


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Post Posted: Sat Aug 19, 2006 2:58 am 
 

aia wrote:

perfect! i wanna thank Mars for this last post!
now, i'd like to better understand the US postal system indeed... as well as the famous criteria of "excessive fees" stated by ebay!

1) i know since i started doing purchases in US that the most easy and chap way to send small item is AIRLETTER POST... but what are the thresholds for this kind of delivery? is there any weight or size limit?

2) what should i do if a seller charges me a airmail parcel post and then he sends the item with letter post saving up even 75% of the S&H fees???

3) how much do you allow to the seller in terms of flaxibility of the S&H fee? do you allow him to gain a couple of $? do you pay attention or not? or you're strict with it and you don't let him gain neither a cent?
\

1.  Over 4 lbs the rate goes up tremendously.  Otherwise it's your best bet.  I've never had  apackage to Italy lost by airmail. Surface, however, another story....

2.  If the seller specifically states he is charging you for airmail, then sends by another method, I'd let him have it via feedback.....dishonest at best.

3.  As a seller, I typically attach $1.50 to international packages for handling.  Many sellers will be nice enough to send it at cost, but not most established dealers.  If the handling cost is only a few bucks, I wouldn't worry about it.  More than once I've quoted a price to an international buyer, and then get to the post office and for some reason the package weighs more and I end up having to shell out my own money.  You don't know in every case if the seller just figured the price wrong.  Now, if it's a $10-$20 overcharge, that's probably over the top.  Just use your own judgement.

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Post Posted: Sat Aug 19, 2006 4:06 am 
 

Aia,

 Here's what I think you should do:

It's a cheap item that you could easily pass on.  Since he won't accept your paypal tell him nicely that you would like to cancel the transaction as that is the only way you will pay (and he didn't mention that he won't accept paypal in his description).  That is fair for both sides.  

The seller can begin a non-paying bidder complaint with ebay if you both agree.  Once this is begun, there is the option for "both parties have mutally agreed to not complete the transaction".  He gets a fee refund and you don't get a strike against you.

If he balks at this, then state that you will have to complain to ebay as he won't accept your paypal payment.  Further, you have documented emails that he has instructed you how to use Paypal an "alternate" way (this would stand in your favor - though I wouldn't threaten to use it unless the seller refused the othere options).  With a few polite emails, I'm sure it can be worked out.


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Post Posted: Sat Aug 19, 2006 11:08 am 
 

Paypal suck because they insist on not only a method that has proof of delivery - which is fair enough - but one that is trackable as well - which rules out the cheap registered airmail options.

  
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