Greg,

First, let me say I'm glad you've stuck around after what was, I'm sure, an unsettling introduction here.

My question:

I've always been curious about whether the designers and industry leaders from, say, the mid- to late-70s, knew each other and what their level of communication was.

You mentioned a fairly strong gaming scene in the Bay Area ... but did any of you guys know anyone in the "Phoenix group" (the Tunnels & Trolls gang)? Were the names coming out of Lake Geneva just shadowy legends, or did you actually know some of them? Were you familiar with Howard Thompson and Steve Jackson down in Texas?

And, in an era of no internet and no e-mail, I'd imagine conventions were a big key, as much a social gathering as a chance to sell games. Would that be accurate? Also, the magazines from that era: it seems like a lot of you guys designing games actually took the time to contribute to each others' magazines — is that how you remember it?

Finally — and this will sound lame — but did you write a lot of letters back then?** I mean, I'm not sure I can remember my last letter that wasn't actually an invoice I was sending out. E-mail has made me pathologicially lazy in that regard ... I'm curious as to the level of so-called "snail mail" that you sent out.

Thanks in advance.

+++++

** [late addition: that should have been re-worded somehow to reflect that I'm only really asking about gaming-related correspondence ... your personal letters, of course, are none of my damn business. ]

Thanks for the information, Greg!

Xaxaxe, you might be interested in this thread:

http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=1 ... ge=1&pp=10

in which I and others discuss the early years of gaming in the Bay Area...there was a really interesting big meta-group. These years of 'open gaming' had their drawbacks, but having started out in the tail end of this period on the West Coast, I remember there were some great things about it too...in some ways it seemed like everyone was playing the same game, just with different rules. (This is I think one reason for the ambiguity D&D/FRP/RPG that persists to this day, the other being D&D's overall market dominance of course.) IYou could easily bring the same characters from table to table even though the published rules in force might be very different at each one.

Greg,

Oh yea, look in one of his spell lists too, for somethign about "Staffor'd Selective Rainbow" or somethign, which drops people out of the sky when they least expect it.

 

This is actually a subtle bit of humor I never noticed, not knowing the story. In The Arduin Grimoire we find:

Name: STAFFORD'S STAR BRIDGE Level: 9th Mana Cost: 18 plus 1 per minute after 10 minutes Range: 120' Area Affected: Variable  Effects: A rainbow-hued bridge of coruscating light 5' wide and 20' long per level over level needed for use. It will carry any weight, cannot be hit by non-magikal things, and can be keyed to support any single type (or more), letting all others fall through selectively.

If the story behind this is as you say it's a rather sad and poetic lament, after its fashion: here you were, offering 'the bridge to the stars', but Dave had been let fall through 'selectively.'

Local then, are you? Great article, eh? Moria Johnson, it was. She wrote that thing to make me a hero of RPG and Dave a villian (remember his comment about bodybags? He was never very tactful)

I know that Dave also read it that way and was very hurt by the article, but actually reading it as a ten year old kid it made me want to play with both of you (even as a kid I wasn't much for the 'family' concerns that she raised about Dave's game and which he went to so much length to combat by getting a 'Christian' endorsement for The Arduin Adventure later on, which is actually a rather nice rules-lite fantasy game off the basic template). I remember lying in my grandmother's guest bed dreaming of exploring Snake Pipe Hollow with your players...

He was surprised, but sent in a sort of Cthulhu dungeon. It was almost rejected, but I wanted it in even though it was really contrary to the game.

The infamous Black Devil Mountain if I recall correctly. It's quite a good dungeon in its way, but the problem of course is that Call of Cthulhu isn't in most applications a dungeoneering game. As I recall that same volume had another one by Hargrave, Dark Carnival, which was a little more in the CoC spirit. I always loved reading his writing and actually solod some out-powered characters through BDM, so it did get some use.

Your analysis is pretty good, though his "bursts" could be pretty sustained.

Oh, I didn't mean to suggest otherwise. You and M.A.R. Barker were always the models for integrated world-builders, but there's a lot of pure gold in Hargrave's stuff. So many of those spells, magic items, treasures and the like exhibit a kind of raw creativity which was a real gift of his and which have a wonderful sort of old-school S&S feel. Also, the lists he published of inns, calendars, NPCs and so forth were a big influence on me and many other GMs (some now with famous published worlds) - copying this stuff was a practical route to making your world come alive in a time when there basically wasn't much like that out there unless you were reading the 'zines. And then, also, his general GMing advice and 'take a troll to lunch' philosophy seems ever more important to me the way that RPG gaming seems to be going, with these highly managed product lines and intricately interconnected systems. I know that my DMing style owes as much to Hargrave's writings as anyone else's, even though I tend to run more low powered and aesthetically unified stuff.

Those first three Grimoires sold a great number of copies and influenced a lot of people - as just one example Jon Tweet and Monte Cook both paid homage to them not long after 3e was published.

Thanks for the stories about Dave's GMing. I had a chance to play in one of his games once, but I didn't know the middleman very well and being a South Bay product and underage with no car I didn't feel comfortable trying to make my own way out to Concord or whatever it was. I'll always deeply regret not following up on that, since there aren't going to be any more chances now.

Xaxaxe wrote:

Calithena wrote:Thanks for the information, Greg!

Xaxaxe, you might be interested in this thread:

http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=1 ... ge=1&pp=10

Holy guacamole — check out the guy with 29,000 posts!

That's more than even Al's total.

Quite a few LOL's in there I am sure.  

Xaxaxe wrote:First, let me say I'm glad you've stuck around after what was, I'm sure, an unsettling introduction here.

Eh, not so bad really. I made a mistake, and had a chance to explain things.
An I'm glad too. This is a fun forum for me.

My question:
I've always been curious about whether the designers and industry leaders from, say, the mid- to late-70s, knew each other and what their level of communication was.

Ah, the Golden Age. I am being filled with golden nostalgia now.

You mentioned a fairly strong gaming scene in the Bay Area ... but did any of you guys know anyone in the "Phoenix group" (the Tunnels & Trolls gang)? Were the names coming out of Lake Geneva just shadowy legends, or did you actually know some of them? Were you familiar with Howard Thompson and Steve Jackson down in Texas?

Yea, we all knew each other. Heck, for several years Scott Bizar of FGU was my brother-in-law! Gary, Dave, Steve, Howard, Pete. For one thing, we were all just so thrilled to have a bunch of other game geeks to talk to! Just about everyone was young, ambitious, creative.

And, in an era of no internet and no e-mail, I'd imagine conventions were a big key, as much a social gathering as a chance to sell games. Would that be accurate?

Absolutely. Man, they were really a blast since it was the ONLY time we'd all be in one place. Not that everyone was friends, since there were some perosnality differences, but we all were friendly. Well, not all. Some guys were pretty "high and mighty," especially the old board game folks (Dunnigan at SPI comes to mind) who were as resentful of the RPG taking over the market as the RPG guys later when CCGs ate us alive.

Also, the magazines from that era: it seems like a lot of you guys designing games actually took the time to contribute to each others' magazines — is that how you remember it?

That's how it actually was. There were not many companies, not many magazines, and everyone wanted to contribute to the entire industry and publicize our games. I dont recall much rancor or jealousy, either. TSR were the gorillas of the time, and somewhat arrogant, but still most of the creative guys were in the same boat.

Finally — and this will sound lame — but did you write a lot of gaming-related letters back then? ... I'm curious as to the level of so-called "snail mail" that you sent out.

A fair amount. Most of my correspondance was with contributors, though, not so much with other publishers. If I needed some information I'd just pick up a phone and call. I'd guess the letters might still be in dusty old boxes over at Chaosium somewhere.

Hi Greg,

Glad that you are here taking a few questions.
There has been speculation that Chaosium will be reprinting Beyond the Mountains of Madness.
Is there any target date on that or is it merely speculation from anxious players and collectors?

Thanks!
JasonW

Thought it might be worth asking. Nobody seems to know and I just thought that there might be a miniscule chance that you had an "inside scoop".  

JasonW

Hi, Greg. Thanks for the great answers to my Hargrave queries.

I had a Glorantha question. I was wondering where the Trolls came from: specifically, did the Broken Sword have an influence on the early iterations of the world? I've often thought the elves/dwarves/trolls/goblins basis had more legs than the elves/dwarves/hobbits of Tolkien, and sometimes I think I see the traces of this in Glorantha here and there.

So, Glorantha was a creation that pre-dates fantasy reading!

How far back was Glorantha in your mind?  Can you think of a year or other chronological even with which the rough outlines of Glorantha coincides in your mental landscape?

(I think the concept of fantasy worlds is very interesting.  In fact, we role-players all share memories of places that do not even exist...often with the vividness of real places.  The ruined moathouse outside of the Village of Hommlet is an excellent example.)

Also, since your concept of Glorantha preceeds your encounter with Tolkien, it must also preceed your encounter with fantasy role-playing.  How did Glorantha become a role-playing project?

Mark  

Interesting how Wisconsin figures so much in the start of RPG's.

How did you come to know so many well-known fantasy and science fiction writers?  What, for instance, were they doing in Wisconsin?

Also, could you relate any details about the forming of Chaosium?

("forming of Chaosium"...almost a deliberate irony?)

Mark