AD&D Sorcerer rules
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Post Posted: Mon May 08, 2006 8:46 pm 
 

red_bus wrote:It is too easy to have all your spells available for casting - having to pick and choose from a list and then choose when and where is best to use each spell  - all makes you think more about your spells.

I suppose ... provided you've got enough levels. But "fire and forget" doesn't do much for the 1st-level Magic-User, who is — let's be honest here — just a walking Wand of Magic Missiles with one charge per day.

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Post Posted: Mon May 08, 2006 10:37 pm 
 

killjoy32 wrote:
flying_purple_monkfish wrote:hmm. I have no idea... it's a shame really... cuz I prefer the sorc to the wizard... makes more sense in my mind you see.


bah.

what the hell is wrong with a magic-user and thats that :D

Al


I am with you Al. How can anyone deny the 1st level magic user? Lowest hp of all classes. AC10 on average. One spell (better be a sleep). Hope and pray you get a find familiar spell to start (get that extra 1d4 hit points). Agonize over your one dagger, dart or staff selection. It just doesn't get any better that that.

Anyway, we never changed a thing.


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Post Posted: Tue May 09, 2006 12:45 pm 
 

What I used to do with wizard/m-us is have them only be able to cast what the had memorized as per the rules, but -

They didn't have to memorize all their spells at night/morning (whichever you used), they could memorized whenever they wished (if they still had room to mem + use more).  So wizard allowed 2/1 for their spells might memorize 1 1st and 1 2nd to be ready (often combat spells for short notice), then save 1 open slot to memorize/prepare later in the day on a 'as need arises' basis.  Memorization times were 10 min/spell level, I think (we came across this somewhere, but where I couldn't begin to tell you where), so a 1st took 10 min to memorize and a 7th 70 min.

This gave low level wizards more versatility and reduced the awesome destructive power of high-level wizards (In that they couldn't cast their full arsenal of spells every single day - just rememorizing them all might take 10-30 hours of time, on top of the sleep required.  Spells memorized/prepared but not used 'carried over' and could be used without prep time the next day or new ones could be prepared.  Not that you could cumulatively gather spells from day to day - just that if you wanted to keep something as a 'readied spell' that you didn't use yesterday, you didn't have to 'reprepare' it.)

  

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Post Posted: Tue May 09, 2006 1:27 pm 
 

Spell memorization and casting does not have to be visualized as fire and forget.

It can be visualized in the form of power that has been gathered through incantation, ritual, runes and components...and held ready to release.

The spell system for wizards has specifically been designed to keep wizards from totally dominating the game at mid to higher levels.

The new 3.5 sorcerer works well.  He has a set of spell slots open all the time, but can only choose from a limited spell list (chosen by the character in advance).  That's because he skips the ritual, incantation and runes stage of preparation.

Works well.

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Post Posted: Tue May 09, 2006 1:51 pm 
 

Xaxaxe wrote:
red_bus wrote:It is too easy to have all your spells available for casting - having to pick and choose from a list and then choose when and where is best to use each spell  - all makes you think more about your spells.

I suppose ... provided you've got enough levels. But "fire and forget" doesn't do much for the 1st-level Magic-User, who is — let's be honest here — just a walking Wand of Magic Missiles with one charge per day.


Sleep is a pretty good choice for a 1st level mage, but I had a guy go with Charm Person at 1st level and he made it work.  He'd charm a low level brigand or fighter to be his bodyguard, then charm an orc in the dungeon to fight for him, they would protect him enough so that he coudl throw darts or daggers or such.  
  I had another guy that got Mount at first level.  Mount?  Well, at first level you can create a mule or light horse, and a Mule is 3 hd.  And the spell range is 10 yds...so in a dungeon setting, creating a mule behind the line of combat (behind a group of kobolds or orcs attacking the party) worked wonders, creating havoc and on more than one occasion kicking many opponents to death before being killed or disappearing.  
 Color Spray can take out 1-6 opponents for 2-8 rounds, no save, if they are the same level or less than the 1st level mage. And of course, Phantasmal Force is a "do anything" type of spell good for a very intelligent player.
 Anyway, part of the absolute fun of AD&D was having the wimpy 4 hp mage with a dagger and one spell eventually becoming the 12th level uberstud tossing Fireballs, Cones of Cold and Lightning Bolts around with a flick of the wrist....!

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Post Posted: Tue May 09, 2006 5:10 pm 
 

Badmike wrote:
Xaxaxe wrote:
red_bus wrote:It is too easy to have all your spells available for casting - having to pick and choose from a list and then choose when and where is best to use each spell  - all makes you think more about your spells.

I suppose ... provided you've got enough levels. But "fire and forget" doesn't do much for the 1st-level Magic-User, who is — let's be honest here — just a walking Wand of Magic Missiles with one charge per day.


Sleep is a pretty good choice for a 1st level mage, but I had a guy go with Charm Person at 1st level and he made it work.  He'd charm a low level brigand or fighter to be his bodyguard, then charm an orc in the dungeon to fight for him, they would protect him enough so that he coudl throw darts or daggers or such.  
  I had another guy that got Mount at first level.  Mount?  Well, at first level you can create a mule or light horse, and a Mule is 3 hd.  And the spell range is 10 yds...so in a dungeon setting, creating a mule behind the line of combat (behind a group of kobolds or orcs attacking the party) worked wonders, creating havoc and on more than one occasion kicking many opponents to death before being killed or disappearing.  
 Color Spray can take out 1-6 opponents for 2-8 rounds, no save, if they are the same level or less than the 1st level mage. And of course, Phantasmal Force is a "do anything" type of spell good for a very intelligent player.
 Anyway, part of the absolute fun of AD&D was having the wimpy 4 hp mage with a dagger and one spell eventually becoming the 12th level uberstud tossing Fireballs, Cones of Cold and Lightning Bolts around with a flick of the wrist....!

Mike B.


Mount is interesting.  Never saw that.

Don't get me started on Charm Person being a 1st lvl spell, though.
Worst. Rule. In. The. History. Of. RPGs.

I eventually got sick of fudging NPC saves and made it a 4th lvl spell the way it should be.

L1 - Friends, L3 - Suggestion, L4 - Charm Person, L5 - Dominate (2E) is a progression that makes sense.  L1 - Charm Person is off the charts insane.

  

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Post Posted: Tue May 09, 2006 5:19 pm 
 

Necessity is the mother of invention (and imagination). We never tinkered with the rules to make it easier for characters to survive. If the DM fudged a roll or added a twist to help out from time to time, so be it.

And let's not get into that argument about game mechanics over "realism" crap.


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Post Posted: Tue May 09, 2006 6:20 pm 
 

mordrin wrote:
Badmike wrote:
Xaxaxe wrote:
red_bus wrote:It is too easy to have all your spells available for casting - having to pick and choose from a list and then choose when and where is best to use each spell  - all makes you think more about your spells.

I suppose ... provided you've got enough levels. But "fire and forget" doesn't do much for the 1st-level Magic-User, who is — let's be honest here — just a walking Wand of Magic Missiles with one charge per day.


Sleep is a pretty good choice for a 1st level mage, but I had a guy go with Charm Person at 1st level and he made it work.  He'd charm a low level brigand or fighter to be his bodyguard, then charm an orc in the dungeon to fight for him, they would protect him enough so that he coudl throw darts or daggers or such.  
  I had another guy that got Mount at first level.  Mount?  Well, at first level you can create a mule or light horse, and a Mule is 3 hd.  And the spell range is 10 yds...so in a dungeon setting, creating a mule behind the line of combat (behind a group of kobolds or orcs attacking the party) worked wonders, creating havoc and on more than one occasion kicking many opponents to death before being killed or disappearing.  
 Color Spray can take out 1-6 opponents for 2-8 rounds, no save, if they are the same level or less than the 1st level mage. And of course, Phantasmal Force is a "do anything" type of spell good for a very intelligent player.
 Anyway, part of the absolute fun of AD&D was having the wimpy 4 hp mage with a dagger and one spell eventually becoming the 12th level uberstud tossing Fireballs, Cones of Cold and Lightning Bolts around with a flick of the wrist....!

Mike B.


Mount is interesting.  Never saw that.

Don't get me started on Charm Person being a 1st lvl spell, though.
Worst. Rule. In. The. History. Of. RPGs.

I eventually got sick of fudging NPC saves and made it a 4th lvl spell the way it should be.

L1 - Friends, L3 - Suggestion, L4 - Charm Person, L5 - Dominate (2E) is a progression that makes sense.  L1 - Charm Person is off the charts insane.


Charm Person can work if your DM does a good job.  I was constantly giving the creature or person charmed extra saving throws as the Mage commanded him to do things against his nature.  And if you have an orc, for example, it's against his nature to associate with elves or dwarves so non humans were never good subjects for long term charm. And while the charmed creature won't attack or hurt the mage, that doesn't automatically figure for everyone around the mage.  Most intelligent beings will be able to wiggle out of a charm person pretty quickly by extra saving throws.  For example, asking a charmed being to give up treasure, magic or spellbooks was pretty much an extra save at something like +4 to +6 in my campaigns.  My players learned that Charm was a nice spell for use in combat to make a foe stop attacking, but shouldn't be counted on as a long term solution. Oh, and in my campaigns I said that when characters came out of a charm they KNEW both that they were charmed, and who charmed them.
          But still, you are right, in the hands of a clever player this is a very nice 1st level spell!

Mike B.


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Post Posted: Tue May 09, 2006 6:40 pm 
 

We pretty much did the same thing regarding Charm Person.

And then there is the "what's good for the goose..." factor. If PCs started abusing holes in the rule system...the villians were not far behind. Nothing sucks more than getting a PC charmed. The bitching starts almost immediately. Suddenly all those things the PC wizard wanted his thrall to do were not so "normal."

A first level wizard has to gamble on his one and only spell. Seems everytime I took a sleep, our party encountered nothing but skeletons, elves, animated statues, yadda yadda yadda...That is what makes low level magic users so cool. They can be devestating in one encounter while still having that innate ability to be completely useless in another and another and another.


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Post Posted: Tue May 09, 2006 6:47 pm 
 

I always liked the strategic value of Enlarge/Reduce. It can be used to go through a locked door, for example, or to cross apparently impassable obstacles (such as a chasm). Most players tend to ignore its effects outside of combat, but it is one of the most versatile 1st-level spells.

At low levels, Sleep is invaluable in combat situations. The drawback is that after a few levels it'll become totally useless, and will be used only for other strategic purposes, mostly against 0-level NPCs, and anything you do with Sleep by then is nothing you can't do better with other spells.

One of the all-time best is of course Magic Missile, not much because of the damage it inflicts (which is respectable anyway for a 1-st level spell), but because it's incredibly useful in a melee where there is an enemy spellcaster. Unless he has magic resistance, Magic Missile is one of the best choices to prevent him from casting, since it's a very fast spell. Of course, a successful Melf's Acid Arrow can prevent several levels of casting, but then you have to do that dreaded attack roll first.

Spider Climb can have many very interesting uses, but it has a problem: you have to swallow a live spider to cast it. A good player playing this correctly might lose two or three rounds before finally forcing himself to cast it - and maybe it's useless by then.

Another one which is often overlooked is Audible Glamer. As a DM, I know that it can be used in a thousand ways to scare the hell out of the players. Also, it can produce very entertaining situations in a tavern, or around a campfire, or at a court - if you but hav a bit of creative humour.

I personally enjoyed very much a particular technique I called "Firestar". I did it with my drow wizardess in very dire situations, when the foes were outnumbering us, and it was clear that things would not go well. I alerted my comrades to get away, then I cast a Fireball centered on... myself. Usually that worked very well, leaving me mostly unscathed but with some bodies littered around. Then, there were those couple of times when the spell overcome the drow's magic resistance... then I had only to hope that the comrades were able to make quick work of the remaining enemies.

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Post Posted: Tue May 09, 2006 7:34 pm 
 

guerret wrote:I always liked the strategic value of Enlarge/Reduce. It can be used to go through a locked door, for example, or to cross apparently impassable obstacles (such as a chasm). Most players tend to ignore its effects outside of combat, but it is one of the most versatile 1st-level spells.

At low levels, Sleep is invaluable in combat situations. The drawback is that after a few levels it'll become totally useless, and will be used only for other strategic purposes, mostly against 0-level NPCs, and anything you do with Sleep by then is nothing you can't do better with other spells.

One of the all-time best is of course Magic Missile, not much because of the damage it inflicts (which is respectable anyway for a 1-st level spell), but because it's incredibly useful in a melee where there is an enemy spellcaster. Unless he has magic resistance, Magic Missile is one of the best choices to prevent him from casting, since it's a very fast spell. Of course, a successful Melf's Acid Arrow can prevent several levels of casting, but then you have to do that dreaded attack roll first.

Spider Climb can have many very interesting uses, but it has a problem: you have to swallow a live spider to cast it. A good player playing this correctly might lose two or three rounds before finally forcing himself to cast it - and maybe it's useless by then.

Another one which is often overlooked is Audible Glamer. As a DM, I know that it can be used in a thousand ways to scare the hell out of the players. Also, it can produce very entertaining situations in a tavern, or around a campfire, or at a court - if you but hav a bit of creative humour.

I personally enjoyed very much a particular technique I called "Firestar". I did it with my drow wizardess in very dire situations, when the foes were outnumbering us, and it was clear that things would not go well. I alerted my comrades to get away, then I cast a Fireball centered on... myself. Usually that worked very well, leaving me mostly unscathed but with some bodies littered around. Then, there were those couple of times when the spell overcome the drow's magic resistance... then I had only to hope that the comrades were able to make quick work of the remaining enemies.


One of my brother's mages years ago was a devotee of Reduce.  He got it every day even at high levels.  His favorite use for it was to cast all his protection spells on himself, plus Fly, then Reduce himself.  At 9th level that meant he was about 6 inches tall, and he would zip around in combat situations like a deadly mosquito, casting all his spells with little chance of being hit.  A Fireball or Lightning Bolt did the same amount of damage at 6 inches tall as 6 feet tall.....often he could fly ahead and not be seen by the enemy, then get behind them or in a dark corner of the room and cast a spell to devastating effect.
  Another helpful combat spell is Grease.  It can also come in handy in many, many other situations.  It's best use is when the group has to combat a foe in a limited space (10x10 hallway, small room, stairway, etc).  Any creature entering the area has to make a save or fall if they stay in the area that means every round....a successful save means you either leave the area, or have to save all over again the next round.  Duration is 3rd plus 1 round leve, so even at first level the opponent would have to make four saves if they stayed in the area.  Mages can also cast it on the opponents weapons or shields (10x10 area would typically affect two creatures). Again, the creatures must save each round or drop the item, which could be devasting in combat.  I remember one really nasty combat situation many, many years ago, the Grease spell had just become official and my brother's mage got the spell.  The first combat at Bone Hill, the party was in a narrow corridor with superior foes charging down it, the mage cast it in a 10 square in front of them. The party managed to defeat several higher level foes because they kept failing their saves, falling down and then getting shot with the party's archers as they struggled to get up (the situation should negate shield or Dex bonuses plus give a bonus to hit!),  Until then the party members had been chiding my brother to get another spell instead of Grease, they learned to respect the power of the spell after that...!
   My brothers and I have been gaming steadily for almost 30 years.  My brothers enjoy livening up games nowadays by trying out non-traditional spells and seeing if they can find loopholes that will assist them. For example, knowing that I almost always equip enemy spellcaster/leader types with helpful potions, they started getting Shatter as one of their 2nd level spells and ruining many a plan by destroying all the enemies potions!  Forced me to change up my tactics a bit after that...but that's why the game is so damn fun!  Your brain gets a workout trying to outthink/outfit intelligent players or DMs  :twisted:

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Post Posted: Tue May 09, 2006 8:02 pm 
 

One of my players used mount as a ripoff scheme.  In every town and village he passed, he would sell his magical mount for a very reasonable price...and then leave.

    Worked well so long as he wasn't going back.

    Also, my players still laugh every time they mention two infamous spells:

    Evard's black tentacles squeezed my uber-kraken..."The Terror Squid"...to death. Irony.

    My "impossibly horrible fire golem" was undone by a grease spell.  ("If you grease my golem..." has since become a catch phrase.)

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Post Posted: Tue May 09, 2006 8:48 pm 
 

MShipley88 wrote:One of my players used mount as a ripoff scheme.  In every town and village he passed, he would sell his magical mount for a very reasonable price...and then leave.

    Worked well so long as he wasn't going back.


That's a pretty good idea...would also work AGAINST the players as well.  Say they are going somewhere "no man was meant to go"....and the village trader has to sell them a mount, he also happens to be a low level mage, he figures they are never going to come back anyway, so he sells them a magic mount instead of a real one.  Imagine the looks on the characters faces when the mounts disappears from underneath the character, or better yet later that night while everyone is sleeping ("Wow, Fred's horse is gone, without a trace!!!").  Lots of fun for the DM there...

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Post Posted: Tue May 09, 2006 9:07 pm 
 

One of the best kept secrets in first ed. is the versatility and variety of solid level one spells. From magic missile to unseen servant.

Now second level spells... 8O


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Post Posted: Tue May 09, 2006 9:16 pm 
 

My god, you're actually discussing game mechanics?  Am I on the right site?  :lol:

I don't really know what a "sorceror" is, as apparently it's a 3E class.  In my campaign setting, I devised an alternate class, the "warlock". (Ok, ok, I'm not creative with names.  It doesn't matter.)  

Essentially, a warlock is superior to a MU in the way a paladin is to a fighter -- and it has societal restrictions to match.  Their XP progression is extremely slow, as well.

All warlocks are trained at special colleges in a certain city, where with great discipline they learn how to truly manipulate magic.  Warlocks are necessarily of Lawful alignment, but can be good, neutral or evil.  They are expected to return a portion of their wealth to the colleges.  

Warlocks are not only capable, they are required to utilize meta-magic in learning their spells, and are capable of adjusting them on the fly.  Fireballs become masses of searing, sticky green tar, etc.  Each and every warlock customizes their spells from the "spell templates", which are the original versions described in the PHB.  Combat requires an alternate point-based magic system, which I haven't finished so I won't describe in detail.  Essentially more power and/or more control = more spell points.  Charm person would definitely cost more points than a lot of other 1st level spells, or be severely weakened in effect.

Only one particular magic-wielding race is (normally) welcomed into these colleges, and standard MUs of that race are considered outcasts -- incapable of understanding magic properly.  Until recently, the land was ruled by a powerful magocracy.

Oh...and they look like lemur-men.  :)  See avatar to the left.

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Post Posted: Wed May 10, 2006 7:39 am 
 

Wasn't there a Warlock class printed up somewhere? White Dwarf maybe...

Nothing like Lemure boy's guys, but still I remember something...


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Post Posted: Wed May 10, 2006 8:35 am 
 

Xaxaxe, what's your avatar from?


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Post Posted: Wed May 10, 2006 1:54 pm 
 

deimos3428 wrote:My god, you're actually discussing game mechanics?  Am I on the right site?  :lol:


Uhm, well, you see, some of us actually *play* this stuff, beyond spending thousands of bucks on them.

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Post Posted: Wed May 10, 2006 2:26 pm 
 

mbassoc2003 wrote:Xaxaxe, what's your avatar from?

The "Order of the Stick" web comic; I believe it was a GenCon T-shirt design. Of course, I change avatars every 10 days, so ... :)

BTW, the comic is great (not #313, in particular; you'll have to go back a few numbers):

Order of the Stick

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Post Posted: Wed May 10, 2006 2:51 pm 
 

deimos3428 wrote:Oh...and they look like lemur-men.  :)  See avatar to the left.


What is it with the lemurs?  :D

Hey, but seriously, have you seen the movie Madagascar?  Lots & lots of cute computer animated lemurs in that movie.    You should check it out for some campaign ideas.  :P

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