Lessons learned. Foul, Please lock this thread :)
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Post Posted: Fri Apr 07, 2006 7:20 am 
 

faro wrote:
johnhuck wrote:Too many threads to keep up with.  I've only Just noticed that we have a ST1 for sale. :oops:

[ Image ]

Obviously too busy searching eBay for dice, or else actually have a life beyond D&D collecting?
(Congrats, John; and best wishes to y'all ;))

A life of sorts.  Nappies and their contents :? Bottles.  Sleep deprivation. Almost a year has just slipped by.  But despite all the shit (literally) its been a great experience.

  


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Post Posted: Fri Apr 07, 2006 7:52 am 
 

I'm not going to get into any slanging matches.  But...

Read the following viewtopic.php?t=1113

Probably the most useful message
johnhuck wrote:Links to scans now posted on listing.  But here they are anyway:

Front Cover: Centaur
http://tinypic.com/arzgx

Front Cover: Bottom half
http://tinypic.com/apf09

Front Cover: Top half   (the spine has not split, but has the colour worn)
http://tinypic.com/arsir

Top of the booklet  
http://tinypic.com/arzhe

Close-up of staples. (spine in good condition)
http://tinypic.com/arsiu

Sample of Internal artwork (slight blurring/yellowing due to scanner)
http://tinypic.com/as1h1


The second image is undeniably of the same cover as that in http://beyondthebreach.acaeum.com/images/forums/st1.jpg as the two white marks/nicks close to the spine in the bottom half are identical.

Unfortunately, not all the images are still there.  Does anyone know how to find the staples images in a cache somewhere?

  

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Post Posted: Fri Apr 07, 2006 8:20 am 
 

David was right, it is the same copy. And I'd take David's word any day. He is never wrong, and I know firsthand he is a trustworthy guy. TFM had the benefit of trust you spoke about, and he apparently broke it. Since the staples were apparently replaced, and the pages used to be stained, now we have to entertain the possibility that the pages themselves were replaced.
You know, Paul, I don't think anyone here gives a crap about people getting "disgusted" and moving on. I'm sure some of them were part of the reason I got out of collecting high-end stuff. When people pull shit like what just went on, it proves again that to a lot of people here, collecting is about money, and showing off. And to pick up your toys and go home after being called out on a fraud is not the best way to defend yourself.
TFM knew there were a lot of people here who would pay him quite a bit of money for an ST1, yet he didn't advertise it in classifieds, or offer to sell it privately. Why? Would anyone here post an ST1 and NOT tell the Acaeum about it?
If David says something shady is going on, then something shady is going on. TFM's utter lack of response, except to quit the board, doesn't help his case. If he is "driven" from the site, it is his loss. People who try to scam SHOULD be driven out. I had a snipe set up for one of his items, but that won't happen, because now that it seems he is a fraudster, I refuse to do business with him, even for a $10 item.
I remember that last year, you sold a "personal collection" for another TSR employee, and there was some sort of stink about it. I believe David was mixed up in it, and I hope that is not the reason you are trying to pin him on this.
And, considering the deals I've given you, and the $700 I saved you on a Pharaoh that SHOULD have been mine, I do hope you are not counting me in your "tainted" list. Unless it's about the Hitler thing. If that is the case, add me.


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Post Posted: Fri Apr 07, 2006 8:52 am 
 

Ditto on that Frank...

Not that anyone cares for my 2 cents but :) .............

As far as "paranoia" I think in almost all the cases it's justified. Just look at half the stuff Brian finds to be suspicious ( especially "shady" dealers )  :!:  In just the past month this "paranoia" has weeded out a scamed Woodgrain.  

We collect items that for the most part are compiled within a very small community and pretty much hold little value to the "outside" world.  When a good chunk of money is involved there will always be elevated suspicions, and it's probably better that way. This past week has been a tough one to begin, just take the RJK auction and the character sheet, I think Brian was totally just in his comments. If I was going to throw $2K at a module that honestly will not hold it's value outside this small group I would really want to know that the item I am throwing money at was %100 legit.

Now obviously I know jack about the current ST1 and it's travels but if David had some very serious suspicions and voiced them ( whether you liked how he said it or not ) I would do more than just up and leave, just thicken the skin some and defend the point. We are all big kids here and hopefully everyone of us can handle criticism ( just or not ) and if in the end it was a huge mis-understanding so be it, resolve it and go back to the daily grind :)

**edited "just" as didn't want it to be read as "it's just paranoia" but to be read as I meant "it's justified" as I was praising, not mocking Brian for his efforts **

  

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Post Posted: Fri Apr 07, 2006 10:35 am 
 

The problem is, someone should not have to:

lordan wrote:just thicken the skin some and defend the point.


Some people do not feel they should waste their time and energy on this kind of crap.  Nor should someone be forced to "defend" themselves.  Yes, answers to questions should be acknowledged - but the "way" someone says something does matter.  You can't treat people like crap.  You can't say:

That bit about staple rust is a bare-faced lie.

and then expect people to calmly (or angrily) just argue back.   It is not an indication of guilt to "walk away" from this kind of behavior.  

As I look at the two scans of the booklet, I feel a certain degree of confidence in saying they are not the same one. Please look at the one I posted and then the one John linked to:

Top of the booklet  
http://tinypic.com/arzhe

There is a "mark" on the "t" in "the" in John's pic as well as one to the top right.  In the pic I am hosting, there are also several spine stresses that do not appear in the other pic.  

I have no knowledge of this item other than what I am viewing on my own investigation.  But, Faro seems to be 100% certain.  So, tell me, is it the same booklet?  It had sure bettter be the way you claimed so emphatically that the seller was lying.

Since there is only one printing of ST1, I would also like to point out that there is no possible harm in switching booklets (if that is indeed what even occured).


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Post Posted: Fri Apr 07, 2006 12:01 pm 
 

I know as a seller I would be greatly offended if my motives, morals or ethics in regards to buying/selling RPG items were taken to task in a public forum.  I would therefore be obliged to defend myself and my reputation in the same public forum.  However, this "take my toys and go home" approach I find more appropriate to children than adults.  If I recall the same sort of paranoia and innuendo led to Dark Seraphim leaving; I thought the same thing then, and I actually had a inside view on that situation through my relationship with Aneoth (who I believe made the remarks that caused Dark to leave).  Basically, because Aneoth was a newbie to collecting and didn't yet grasp "forum etiquette" and publically called out someone over misrepresented item condition, that someone stomped off in a huff forever.  Please.  Frankly, if someone doesn't want to be here, for whatever reason, that is their decision, and they lose as much as the forum does when they leave....the many members that add support, laughter, knowledge and insight to this site every day.  I know I wouldn't let a little misunderstanding run me off.  I find it utterly amazing that someone would leave due to comments made either in ignorance OR truth....without even a parting shot in their defense at that.
  Don't get me wrong,  again if I was in the situation of being maligned I wouldn't be happy at all, as I have spent many years building up a reputation as a (hopefully) reputable dealer of used RPGs and I don't like unfounded speculation.  But paranoia and mistrust cuts both ways.  Unfortunately, there REALLY ARE CROOKS out there who prey on our love of these games and I appreciate the efforts of those on this site who ferret those people out.  I honestly have not one single opinion either way on this current situation, as I am not privy to the details, and won't pretend I know enough to take sides. Myself, I wish everyone would just shake hands, and agree to disagree, and move on.
     Also, The revealing of a "new private more civil site" just makes me shake my head and wonder what the point is....so no one there will disagree on anything?  Ever?   Disagreement is what makes life fun.  If someone can't stand the occasional shot, whether it be justified or not, perhaps the double secret probation site is just the place for them.  I'll take the chance a few of you hate my guts and stay here and contribute for all of those that might want to hear what I have to say.  Hell, I think when I first posted a long list of sale stuff in the classifieds years ago Frank said something like "look, another one of those scumbag dealers is posting his list of crap" (totally paraphrasing since it was so long ago). Happily I didn't run off to another site and miss out on all the fun.
   And I still don't understand why the auction had to be pulled if everything was kosher, no matter what was said on the forum.

Mike B.

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Post Posted: Fri Apr 07, 2006 12:07 pm 
 

Badmike wrote:Hell, I think when I first posted a long list of sale stuff in the classifieds years ago Frank said something like "look, another one of those scumbag dealers is posting his list of crap"

Certainly sounds like Frank!  :lol:

  


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Post Posted: Fri Apr 07, 2006 12:10 pm 
 

Ok, guys, this is no longer fun.  Everybody take a deep breath.  (You need oxygen in order to roll your eyes effectively and make caustic remarks, trust me, I'm a pro.)

It's upsetting that people I consider to be my friends are arguing so viciously with other people that I also consider to be my friends.  Take it to PMs, please, unless it's somehow constructive.

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Post Posted: Fri Apr 07, 2006 12:13 pm 
 

deimos3428 wrote:Ok, guys, this is no longer fun.  Everybody take a deep breath.  (You need oxygen in order to roll your eyes effectively and make caustic remarks, trust me, I'm a pro.)

It's upsetting that people I consider to be my friends are arguing so viciously with other people that I also consider to be my friends.  Take it to PMs, please, unless it's somehow constructive.


Good advice, lets get on with it.


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Post Posted: Fri Apr 07, 2006 12:16 pm 
 

This thread no longer benefits the community. It should be locked or deleted.


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Post Posted: Fri Apr 07, 2006 12:49 pm 
 

Okay, let me get in my two cents in case this thread does in fact get locked. Let me first preface my comments by saying that I do hope that TFM decides to return to the site. I still believe he is fact a good person and that he has a ton to offer both this community and the hobby overall.

That being said, I am quite a bit concerned about what I percieve as at best the misinformation that was relayed in the auction. I have scene the scans that David was refering to in his previous psots and I can gaurentee that the cover scan is 100% the exact same cover as the ST1 that was sold back in November of 2004.   Whether or not TFM actually remebers the exact dates of the puchase of this module is not what concerns me, becasue I sometimes what I forget what I did yesterday and I would never expect some to perfectly remeber the date that purchase something that was well over 1 year ago.  What I do take issue with this is the remark about "I have never seen an ST1 that had its staples rusted, which to me is clearly not the truth.  Being that it is quite obvious  that cover scan matches the one sold in late 2004 that means unequivacably that the buyer of that ST1 did in fact recieve AND see an ST1 with rusty staples.  The question then becomes, "Why would someone go out of their way to say something that knew not to be true?".  I won't pretend to guess at the motivation behind it, but I guess you can't blame people who see smoke start to wonder if there is fire, which gets multiplied by 100 times when you look at the possibility of someone who is planning on spending in excess of $2000.00 on an item. I don't know about anyone else, but I can not afford to lose $2000.00 on a whim and above and beyond that NO ONE should have to either whether they can afford to or not. I think David may have been a bit harsh in detailing of the situation, but I can not argue with what is factually correct.

Above and beyond that, being one of the ones who tries to look out for everyone here, I take offence at the fact that anyone would attempt to belittle my efforts in my attempt to protect people from being ripped off.  I don't know if that attempt was directed at me or not  The fact of the matter is that unfortuantely I have let things that I know about people from this forum slip by in the past because I preceived it was in the best interests of the community to do so.  I can guarentee that if I shined light on some of the goings on behind the scenes about certain members,  that this place would never be the same again, as a matter of fact a lot of things about this hobby would forever and irrepairably changed.


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Post Posted: Fri Apr 07, 2006 12:59 pm 
 

bclarkie wrote: I can guarentee that if I shined light on some of the goings on behind the scenes about certain members,  that this place would never be the same again, as a matter of fact a lot of things about this hobby would forever and irrepairably changed.


8O

Sounds like a Lovecraft story. Secret knowledge that once uncovered will slowly drive you insane...

:D

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Post Posted: Fri Apr 07, 2006 1:07 pm 
 

zhowar wrote:
bclarkie wrote: I can guarentee that if I shined light on some of the goings on behind the scenes about certain members,  that this place would never be the same again, as a matter of fact a lot of things about this hobby would forever and irrepairably changed.


8O

Sounds like a Lovecraft story. Secret knowledge that once uncovered will slowly drive you insane...

:D
Kind of like finding out how much the wife spends on shoes, make up, and persoal supplies!!!   8O  8O


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Post Posted: Fri Apr 07, 2006 1:12 pm 
 

morgansurname wrote:
zhowar wrote:
bclarkie wrote: I can guarentee that if I shined light on some of the goings on behind the scenes about certain members,  that this place would never be the same again, as a matter of fact a lot of things about this hobby would forever and irrepairably changed.


8O

Sounds like a Lovecraft story. Secret knowledge that once uncovered will slowly drive you insane...

:D
Kind of like finding out how much the wife spends on shoes, make up, and persoal supplies!!!   8O  8O


Make that work to your advantage  :!:  :!:  My wife wanted a horse and between Board, Supplements, Shoes and Lessons it's like $700 a month.  8O

But......if I drop $500 on stuff I don't really need ( like D&D stuff ) at least she can't complain. Well she can ( and does ) but it doesn't hold much Merit.  :roll:

  

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Post Posted: Fri Apr 07, 2006 1:20 pm 
 

morgansurname wrote:Kind of like finding out how much the wife spends on shoes, make up, and persoal supplies!!!   8O  8O

Kind of like the wife finding out how much I spend on D&D.  8O

bclarkie wrote:I can guarentee that if I shined light on some of the goings on behind the scenes about certain members,  that this place would never be the same again, as a matter of fact a lot of things about this hobby would forever and irrepairably changed.

Of that, I have no doubt.  8O


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Post Posted: Fri Apr 07, 2006 1:30 pm 
 

mbassoc2003 wrote:
bclarkie wrote:I can guarentee that if I shined light on some of the goings on behind the scenes about certain members,  that this place would never be the same again, as a matter of fact a lot of things about this hobby would forever and irrepairably changed.

Of that, I have no doubt.  8O


Which is probably why it might be best to lock this thread, as I am starting to really get irked.........


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Post Posted: Fri Apr 07, 2006 1:46 pm 
 

Blackmoor wrote:
deimos3428 wrote:Ok, guys, this is no longer fun.  Everybody take a deep breath.  (You need oxygen in order to roll your eyes effectively and make caustic remarks, trust me, I'm a pro.)
It's upsetting that people I consider to be my friends are arguing so viciously with other people that I also consider to be my friends.  Take it to PMs, please, unless it's somehow constructive.

Good advice, lets get on with it.

Agreed.

Let me just address a point Brian and others brought up first; for which level-headed analysis, thanks.
bclarkie wrote:...What I do take issue with this is the remark about "I have never seen an ST1 that had its staples rusted", which to me is clearly not the truth.  Being that it is quite obvious  that cover scan matches the one sold in late 2004 that means unequivacably that the buyer of that ST1 did in fact recieve AND see an ST1 with rusty staples.  The question then becomes, "Why would someone go out of their way to say something that knew not to be true?".  I won't pretend to guess at the motivation behind it, but I guess you can't blame people who see smoke start to wonder if there is fire...

Yes. But no further than that the staples had been replaced or the booklet swapped. If I had been sure of any greater "fire", I would have said so.
As it was, my last post before end-of-auction just recommended evaluation of my previous posts but that I could not stop anyone from bidding.
If anyone had wished copies of the original scans, I was happy to forward those but preferred to leave the condition of the item up for sale to any re-scans carried out by the current seller.

The "fire" as far as I was concerned was deliberately invoking ("For those of you interested in provenance, I purchased it on eBay from a seller in GB a few years ago"), then driving coach-and-horses through the whole concept of "provenance" apparently for the benefit of the seller.
Regardless of who they were (and I did not know it was tfm), I would not expect deliberate attempts to hide the true history of a high-value item. The ST1 - as a whole - was not the one originally purchased, contrary to what was stated. And the line about having never seen a ST1 with staple rust was a "red flag".
*
Why should selling a high-end item with original purchase history plus a note re. staples being changed/new booklet inserted be deemed undesirable simply because that might hurt the sale price (or whatever other reason)?

The other element of the "fire" re. condition not being as good as stated in the text (e.g. "The two bottom corners have a little wear") did not need to be addressed further, thanks to btb posting those scans.
I merely stated that it would be a good idea to request further high-res scans, as required. Sensible advice when parting with hard-earned $.

OK, that's enough post... feel to PM/email, if desired.

  

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Post Posted: Fri Apr 07, 2006 4:05 pm 
 

Hi,

I sold an ST1 a couple of years ago which was in very good nick inside, BUT the outside cover had a coffee-cup ring on it.

If this seller (and I havent been hanging round here recently so i really don't know who he is), acquired this, and had another ST1 as well, then it would make sense to swap the inside booklets to make a "better" copy and a "worse" one.

This is one scenario - and given that the outer covers get damaged easily, a similar scenario is feasible. I have also seen an ST1 with a cigarette hole burned into the back cover, for example.

Cheers,
Malcolm

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