Lessons learned. Foul, Please lock this thread :)
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Post Posted: Thu Apr 06, 2006 7:00 pm 
 

David, please check your PMs. :)


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Post Posted: Thu Apr 06, 2006 7:07 pm 
 

bclarkie wrote:David, please check your PMs. :)

Reply sent.

And if anyone's seriously thinking about this, would advise evaluating the posts towards the foot of the previous page prior to doing so.
Can't stop anyone from bidding. :)

  


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Post Posted: Thu Apr 06, 2006 7:43 pm 
 

It should have been fun, but it is no longer.

Image

Farewell my friends.

Scott: I can no longer serve on the V.B.  Please remove my name from consideration.


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Post Posted: Thu Apr 06, 2006 8:49 pm 
 

:!:  :?:

tfm, are you the seller or is that a picture sent to you by the seller? I can't quite tell whether or not there's staple rust there.

tfm, please don't leave, your posts are much appreciated. I don't buy much, so I don't have much to contribute to your threads, but I enjoy reading them.

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Post Posted: Thu Apr 06, 2006 9:13 pm 
 

zhowar wrote:tfm, please don't leave, your posts are much appreciated. I don't buy much, so I don't have much to contribute to your threads, but I enjoy reading them.


Indeed. Especially your stump the forum thread.

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Post Posted: Thu Apr 06, 2006 9:28 pm 
 

What is going on  :evil: Why was this auction cancelled :x


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Post Posted: Thu Apr 06, 2006 9:55 pm 
 

Blackmoor wrote:What is going on  :evil: Why was this auction cancelled :x


On Apr-06-06 at 16:53:05 PDT, seller added the following information:
Due to negative publicity on another website, I cannot in good conscience allow this auction to conclude.  This module will appear again in a few weeks for sale by another member for a charity benefit for a very good cause.


Sheesh.

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Post Posted: Thu Apr 06, 2006 10:46 pm 
 

So tfm is grettaconroy, I take it?


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Post Posted: Thu Apr 06, 2006 11:19 pm 
 

Howdy Folks,


The negative paranoia on this site just took an ST1 out of contention, from a good seller and steadfast member of this community. You guys assumed you knew which one this was and took harami's word over the seller. Now you probably know who the seller is and realize he has more than one copy. Further, the overiding paranoia and distrust may drive him from this site.

Guys we really need to stop witch hunting every thing that comes down the pipe. We are a community but this behavior is starting to fractionalize us. Help newbies, welcome strangers, give helpful advice, give the benefit of trust until proven otherwise. Innuendo and mob paranoia are not healthy for the community.

Heck there is a group of former Aacaeum folks that have moved on to do their own thing in a new - private - more civil site for just this reason. We lost them and now possibly another.

We need to deal with facts and *solid* evidence not off the cuff quips and innuendo.

I know you guys are trying to suss out the bad guys but you are cutting a little to close to the bone.

Now this doesn't apply to every member, the majority are positive, but the few are tainting the Acaeum community and making it less than hospitable.


Futures Bright,

Paul


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Post Posted: Thu Apr 06, 2006 11:43 pm 
 

I am so confused, did TFM leave the forum because someone called him a liar!  Was he actually selling this item?  Were the acusations Faro made incorrect?  I am so confused!  Jonb is one thing but TFM was a real collector!  :?


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Post Posted: Fri Apr 07, 2006 12:04 am 
 

The Collector's Trove wrote:Howdy Folks,


The negative paranoia on this site just took an ST1 out of contention, from a good seller and steadfast member of this community. You guys assumed you knew which one this was and took harami's word over the seller. Now you probably know who the seller is and realize he has more than one copy. Further, the overiding paranoia and distrust may drive him from this site.

Guys we really need to stop witch hunting every thing that comes down the pipe. We are a community but this behavior is starting to fractionalize us. Help newbies, welcome strangers, give helpful advice, give the benefit of trust until proven otherwise. Innuendo and mob paranoia are not healthy for the community.

Heck there is a group of former Aacaeum folks that have moved on to do their own thing in a new - private - more civil site for just this reason. We lost them and now possibly another.

We need to deal with facts and *solid* evidence not off the cuff quips and innuendo.

I know you guys are trying to suss out the bad guys but you are cutting a little to close to the bone.

Now this doesn't apply to every member, the majority are positive, but the few are tainting the Acaeum community and making it less than hospitable.


Futures Bright,

Paul

Actually, Paul I would very much appreciate an apology from you for getting PUBLICLY involved in slander with regards to something that is not your business and that you know nothing about, afaik.
The one person who could clarify the situation has chosen to say nothing.

I helped the previous owner of that ST1 sell the module and the scans of the cover match perfectly. Those have been forwarded to other trustworthy individuals, for their consideration, and are available for anyone else should they wish.
The story supplied this time around does not match the original item. The stated time period of the sale is incorrect (why?) and the booklet within did originally have staple rust. If the booklet has not been swapped (difficult to understand given the condition of the cover), someone has swapped the staples.

It does not matter whether the seller is a member of this community or not, questions needed to be answered, especially when we're talking about someone forking out well in excess of $1,000.

There is no "negative paranoia", there is no "witch hunting", there is no "innuendo"; I have "solid facts" (as good as can be expected, in this context) in the form of those scans.
Which is 1000% more than the various other members of this community often have when they slam various other items on eBay being run by people not belonging to the community.
*
It is the same ST1 cover at least (and the condition is also somewhat worse than stated in that other eBay reply too-- no mention of the scratches, for example; and the creases are certainly not "little"/"small").

Thank you.

  

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Post Posted: Fri Apr 07, 2006 12:41 am 
 

Unfortunately, this whole bag of shit is inadvertently my fault.  I contacted tfm and offered to host the damn scans so that some level of annonymity could be kept.

Obviously, there was some indication from members on this site that grettaconroy was a reputable seller.  He also has a low tolerance for people acting like a rude ass.

I have no idea if the copy in question is the same one as harami/faro is talking about, but I can assure everyone that in my opinion, the individual in question is honest and trustworthy and very concerned with the integrity of RPG collecting.

Why do you (faro) have to be so freakin' rude sometimes?  You're not a prosecuting attorney clamping down on an investigation.   Even if you thought you had valid points, you communicated them in a "superior-than-thou" and completely rude manner.   You question people's integrity constantly and will no doubt "demand" my apology as well for insulting you on a public forum.  Yet, you constantly make backhanded, subtle or outright critical comments and then "claim" some sort of moral highground for your position.


Most times you seem like a great guy . . . but others you come off as one of the biggest asses I know.



I now await your lengthy diatribe.


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Post Posted: Fri Apr 07, 2006 1:16 am 
 

Beyondthebreach wrote:Why do you (faro) have to be so freakin' rude sometimes?  You're not a prosecuting attorney clamping down on an investigation.   Even if you thought you had valid points, you communicated them in a "superior-than-thou" and completely rude manner.   You question people's integrity constantly

With phrases like "The latest owner seems happy enough to re-scan on request, so might be easier to ask them for more as their scanner is better"?

Would you please read back through my posts from something approaching a neutral point of view.
I am more interested that the buyer gets exactly what it is they think they're getting.

And integrity is certainly no less important, given a four-figure auction.

If, for example, a seller claims (for whatever reason) that they bought an item long before they actually did, they are deliberately choosing to compromise their own integrity. Had they not done so, I could not be "blamed" for "questioning their integrity" by highlighting that fact.

Beyondthebreach wrote:and will no doubt "demand" my apology as well for insulting you on a public forum.  Yet, you constantly make backhanded, subtle or outright critical comments and then "claim" some sort of moral highground for your position.

There is no such "claim". By chance, I just happen to be the person who helped handle the sale of that copy (same cover), last time around.

  

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Post Posted: Fri Apr 07, 2006 1:28 am 
 

Beyondthebreach wrote:Unfortunately, this whole bag of shit is inadvertently my fault.  I contacted tfm and offered to host the damn scans so that some level of annonymity could be kept.

Can't see how that's your "fault", btb. I recognised the copy from the low-res scan, anyhow.

It should not matter whether a seller is a member of this board or otherwise.

  


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Post Posted: Fri Apr 07, 2006 7:20 am 
 

faro wrote:
johnhuck wrote:Too many threads to keep up with.  I've only Just noticed that we have a ST1 for sale. :oops:

[ Image ]

Obviously too busy searching eBay for dice, or else actually have a life beyond D&D collecting?
(Congrats, John; and best wishes to y'all ;))

A life of sorts.  Nappies and their contents :? Bottles.  Sleep deprivation. Almost a year has just slipped by.  But despite all the shit (literally) its been a great experience.

  


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Post Posted: Fri Apr 07, 2006 7:52 am 
 

I'm not going to get into any slanging matches.  But...

Read the following viewtopic.php?t=1113

Probably the most useful message
johnhuck wrote:Links to scans now posted on listing.  But here they are anyway:

Front Cover: Centaur
http://tinypic.com/arzgx

Front Cover: Bottom half
http://tinypic.com/apf09

Front Cover: Top half   (the spine has not split, but has the colour worn)
http://tinypic.com/arsir

Top of the booklet  
http://tinypic.com/arzhe

Close-up of staples. (spine in good condition)
http://tinypic.com/arsiu

Sample of Internal artwork (slight blurring/yellowing due to scanner)
http://tinypic.com/as1h1


The second image is undeniably of the same cover as that in http://beyondthebreach.acaeum.com/images/forums/st1.jpg as the two white marks/nicks close to the spine in the bottom half are identical.

Unfortunately, not all the images are still there.  Does anyone know how to find the staples images in a cache somewhere?

  

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Post Posted: Fri Apr 07, 2006 8:20 am 
 

David was right, it is the same copy. And I'd take David's word any day. He is never wrong, and I know firsthand he is a trustworthy guy. TFM had the benefit of trust you spoke about, and he apparently broke it. Since the staples were apparently replaced, and the pages used to be stained, now we have to entertain the possibility that the pages themselves were replaced.
You know, Paul, I don't think anyone here gives a crap about people getting "disgusted" and moving on. I'm sure some of them were part of the reason I got out of collecting high-end stuff. When people pull shit like what just went on, it proves again that to a lot of people here, collecting is about money, and showing off. And to pick up your toys and go home after being called out on a fraud is not the best way to defend yourself.
TFM knew there were a lot of people here who would pay him quite a bit of money for an ST1, yet he didn't advertise it in classifieds, or offer to sell it privately. Why? Would anyone here post an ST1 and NOT tell the Acaeum about it?
If David says something shady is going on, then something shady is going on. TFM's utter lack of response, except to quit the board, doesn't help his case. If he is "driven" from the site, it is his loss. People who try to scam SHOULD be driven out. I had a snipe set up for one of his items, but that won't happen, because now that it seems he is a fraudster, I refuse to do business with him, even for a $10 item.
I remember that last year, you sold a "personal collection" for another TSR employee, and there was some sort of stink about it. I believe David was mixed up in it, and I hope that is not the reason you are trying to pin him on this.
And, considering the deals I've given you, and the $700 I saved you on a Pharaoh that SHOULD have been mine, I do hope you are not counting me in your "tainted" list. Unless it's about the Hitler thing. If that is the case, add me.


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Post Posted: Fri Apr 07, 2006 8:52 am 
 

Ditto on that Frank...

Not that anyone cares for my 2 cents but :) .............

As far as "paranoia" I think in almost all the cases it's justified. Just look at half the stuff Brian finds to be suspicious ( especially "shady" dealers )  :!:  In just the past month this "paranoia" has weeded out a scamed Woodgrain.  

We collect items that for the most part are compiled within a very small community and pretty much hold little value to the "outside" world.  When a good chunk of money is involved there will always be elevated suspicions, and it's probably better that way. This past week has been a tough one to begin, just take the RJK auction and the character sheet, I think Brian was totally just in his comments. If I was going to throw $2K at a module that honestly will not hold it's value outside this small group I would really want to know that the item I am throwing money at was %100 legit.

Now obviously I know jack about the current ST1 and it's travels but if David had some very serious suspicions and voiced them ( whether you liked how he said it or not ) I would do more than just up and leave, just thicken the skin some and defend the point. We are all big kids here and hopefully everyone of us can handle criticism ( just or not ) and if in the end it was a huge mis-understanding so be it, resolve it and go back to the daily grind :)

**edited "just" as didn't want it to be read as "it's just paranoia" but to be read as I meant "it's justified" as I was praising, not mocking Brian for his efforts **

  

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Post Posted: Fri Apr 07, 2006 10:35 am 
 

The problem is, someone should not have to:

lordan wrote:just thicken the skin some and defend the point.


Some people do not feel they should waste their time and energy on this kind of crap.  Nor should someone be forced to "defend" themselves.  Yes, answers to questions should be acknowledged - but the "way" someone says something does matter.  You can't treat people like crap.  You can't say:

That bit about staple rust is a bare-faced lie.

and then expect people to calmly (or angrily) just argue back.   It is not an indication of guilt to "walk away" from this kind of behavior.  

As I look at the two scans of the booklet, I feel a certain degree of confidence in saying they are not the same one. Please look at the one I posted and then the one John linked to:

Top of the booklet  
http://tinypic.com/arzhe

There is a "mark" on the "t" in "the" in John's pic as well as one to the top right.  In the pic I am hosting, there are also several spine stresses that do not appear in the other pic.  

I have no knowledge of this item other than what I am viewing on my own investigation.  But, Faro seems to be 100% certain.  So, tell me, is it the same booklet?  It had sure bettter be the way you claimed so emphatically that the seller was lying.

Since there is only one printing of ST1, I would also like to point out that there is no possible harm in switching booklets (if that is indeed what even occured).


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Post Posted: Fri Apr 07, 2006 12:01 pm 
 

I know as a seller I would be greatly offended if my motives, morals or ethics in regards to buying/selling RPG items were taken to task in a public forum.  I would therefore be obliged to defend myself and my reputation in the same public forum.  However, this "take my toys and go home" approach I find more appropriate to children than adults.  If I recall the same sort of paranoia and innuendo led to Dark Seraphim leaving; I thought the same thing then, and I actually had a inside view on that situation through my relationship with Aneoth (who I believe made the remarks that caused Dark to leave).  Basically, because Aneoth was a newbie to collecting and didn't yet grasp "forum etiquette" and publically called out someone over misrepresented item condition, that someone stomped off in a huff forever.  Please.  Frankly, if someone doesn't want to be here, for whatever reason, that is their decision, and they lose as much as the forum does when they leave....the many members that add support, laughter, knowledge and insight to this site every day.  I know I wouldn't let a little misunderstanding run me off.  I find it utterly amazing that someone would leave due to comments made either in ignorance OR truth....without even a parting shot in their defense at that.
  Don't get me wrong,  again if I was in the situation of being maligned I wouldn't be happy at all, as I have spent many years building up a reputation as a (hopefully) reputable dealer of used RPGs and I don't like unfounded speculation.  But paranoia and mistrust cuts both ways.  Unfortunately, there REALLY ARE CROOKS out there who prey on our love of these games and I appreciate the efforts of those on this site who ferret those people out.  I honestly have not one single opinion either way on this current situation, as I am not privy to the details, and won't pretend I know enough to take sides. Myself, I wish everyone would just shake hands, and agree to disagree, and move on.
     Also, The revealing of a "new private more civil site" just makes me shake my head and wonder what the point is....so no one there will disagree on anything?  Ever?   Disagreement is what makes life fun.  If someone can't stand the occasional shot, whether it be justified or not, perhaps the double secret probation site is just the place for them.  I'll take the chance a few of you hate my guts and stay here and contribute for all of those that might want to hear what I have to say.  Hell, I think when I first posted a long list of sale stuff in the classifieds years ago Frank said something like "look, another one of those scumbag dealers is posting his list of crap" (totally paraphrasing since it was so long ago). Happily I didn't run off to another site and miss out on all the fun.
   And I still don't understand why the auction had to be pulled if everything was kosher, no matter what was said on the forum.

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