The Collector's Trove: Robert J. Kuntz Collection
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Post Posted: Mon Apr 03, 2006 9:31 pm 
 

To say that original hand drawn dungeon levels have only nominal value is just not true.

I'd have dropped quite a bit of money on those Greyhawk levels, if they were originals and not just archive photocopies.

Not to ever sell.  Not for investment.  But just so I could have them to look at.

If given a choice of a shrinked OB3 or an original hand drawn level done by EGG of the Dungeons of Greyhawk, you'd chose the OB3?

Heck I'd pay a sizeable sum just for a complete set of color photocopies of the entire "Red Book".

  

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Post Posted: Mon Apr 03, 2006 10:05 pm 
 

beyerun wrote:To say that original hand drawn dungeon levels have only nominal value is just not true.

I'd have dropped quite a bit of money on those Greyhawk levels, if they were originals and not just archive photocopies.

Not to ever sell.  Not for investment.  But just so I could have them to look at.

If given a choice of a shrinked OB3 or an original hand drawn level done by EGG of the Dungeons of Greyhawk, you'd chose the OB3?

Heck I'd pay a sizeable sum just for a complete set of color photocopies of the entire "Red Book".


I am not talking about prepublication manuscripts. They obviously hold value to the collecting market. I'd pay for a prepub manuscript of many TSR products...just out of nostalgia. However, I draw the line at someones character sheet or personal campaign adventure. That is just me. I was not saying there is no monetary value in them. Just none for me.

I do not idolize the "celebrities" of the gaming world. And I am not saying anyone does (or at least on this forum). To that end, I could care less about celebrity Xs character or his 4th level dungeon he scrawled out for a Saturday game back in 1977. Starts to smack of Trekkies and the like.

And I will be perfectly honest. Yes, I would rather have an OB3 over EGGs hand drawn map of an adventure that A) nobody played or B) probably sucked.

I can hear the curses now, too. No, I am not blaspheming anyone. I am a collector of the game; and at one time an avid player. I will leave the historian thing to others.


And I could've bought these damn modules off the 1$ rack!!!

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Post Posted: Mon Apr 03, 2006 11:16 pm 
 

WoK Hand Drawn Kalibruhn World Map 1973
WoK Hand Drawn Kalibruhn Regional Map 1973
WoK Hand Drawn Kalibruhn Campaign Map 1973
WoK Kalibruhn Folder of Campaign Notes 1973
WoK Original El Raja Key Castle 11 Levels 1973
WoK Hidden Treasure of Kalib the Sorcerer 1974
WoK The Earth Temple of Rehpog Adventure 1974
WoK Kalibruhn Adventure Oogabooga Tribe 1975
Unpub. Ms. D&D Supplement V: Kalibruhn 1975


I don't get it?!? All that work. All that historical significance. Sitting around all these years and no one would publish it?!? What the eff?!? Now it's going to be split up and squirrelled away forever. What a loss.

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Post Posted: Mon Apr 03, 2006 11:42 pm 
 

kevin mayle wrote:
WoK Hand Drawn Kalibruhn World Map 1973
WoK Hand Drawn Kalibruhn Regional Map 1973
WoK Hand Drawn Kalibruhn Campaign Map 1973
WoK Kalibruhn Folder of Campaign Notes 1973
WoK Original El Raja Key Castle 11 Levels 1973
WoK Hidden Treasure of Kalib the Sorcerer 1974
WoK The Earth Temple of Rehpog Adventure 1974
WoK Kalibruhn Adventure Oogabooga Tribe 1975
Unpub. Ms. D&D Supplement V: Kalibruhn 1975


I don't get it?!? All that work. All that historical significance. Sitting around all these years and no one would publish it?!? What the eff?!? Now it's going to be split up and squirrelled away forever. What a loss.


So what is getting sold there. What happens if someone buys those and chooses to publish them? By selling the orginal manuscripts do the rights to them transfer? I am not saying publish them as your own but sort of like how children of great authors publish countless volumes of notes written by their fathers. In those cases they own the estate but if someone auctions you an unpublished manuscript do you not then have the rights to it? Just a thought if they are historically relevant and deserve to be published.


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Post Posted: Mon Apr 03, 2006 11:55 pm 
 

kevin mayle wrote:I don't get it?!? All that work. All that historical significance. Sitting around all these years and no one would publish it?!? What the eff?!? Now it's going to be split up and squirrelled away forever. What a loss.


That's not necessarily true, on a few fronts:  Rob tried to work with TSR to publish many of his projects, but he was basically cut out from that option when Gary was forcibly removed from the company.  Rob has published some of his work since, and will continue to do so, hopefully with Tadashi and me as well as other publishers.


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Post Posted: Tue Apr 04, 2006 12:00 am 
 

Marlith wrote:So what is getting sold there. What happens if someone buys those and chooses to publish them? By selling the orginal manuscripts do the rights to them transfer?


Absolutely not.  I don't know if Paul made that clear in this auction (I haven't seen the original mss. listings yet, they went up too late for me last night), but Rob has certainly retained ownership of all of his materials:  he is selling the original manuscripts, but not the rights to the intellectual property of those mss.  

Any of the materials sold could eventually show up as a product someday.  

Marlith wrote:I am not saying publish them as your own but sort of like how children of great authors publish countless volumes of notes written by their fathers. In those cases they own the estate but if someone auctions you an unpublished manuscript do you not then have the rights to it? Just a thought if they are historically relevant and deserve to be published.


Nope.  Authors retain the rights, even if they don't have the original materils---unless of course they sold those rights, which isn't the case here.  

I agree completely that they deserve to be published.  That's part of Rob's goals in these various auctions---to raise sufficient funds to be able to fund Pied Piper Publishing so that a wider audience can enjoy these materials.

I'm sure Paul will chime in here, as well, of course; Paul, please do correct me where I may be in error since I haven't specifically spoken to Rob about this round of auctions recently.


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Post Posted: Tue Apr 04, 2006 12:04 am 
 

The Collector's Trove wrote:About the DWP, it's all about building excitement gradually until the crescendo at the end.


No, no, no---you're missing the point:  you should be mentioning Rob's Different World Publishing books more explicitly as part of your history, so that we'll be able to sell a few more modules :D :D :D

I also noted that you didn't mention anything about the fact that the two EHP titles were gifts from me to Rob :P

Apparently I'm not worthy ;)


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Post Posted: Tue Apr 04, 2006 12:33 am 
 

bbarsh wrote:My perspective comes from this point: I see no value whatsoever in personal collection items from "industry celebs."

From my standpoint, I have to agree with Brian. If I bought something that I "percieved" as a one of a kind, I'd prefer it to stay that way.

Now I do see the "interest" in such items. I just don't see why anyone would pay more that few dollars for such items. That is just my personal opinion. But for those of you who do value such items, there has to be a certainty that they are actually one-a-kind items and that the originator is not going to produce more.


I thought I was the only one.  I have never bid on and will never bid on any of the personal collection items for simply that reason.  That being said I would love to own, say, some of the original maps/levels of original Castle Greyhawk, or similar manuscripts.  But the problem always exists that anyone with a copier could make as many copies as they wanted of any personal papers and distribute them accordingly once they are in the personal possession of the winner.  Remember that there is never a guarantee that these items will stay in the hands of those of us who appreciate their value and scarcity....People who win these auctions should always bid and evaluate worth according to these precepts.  Always the bottom line should be "What's it worth to ME personally, not as a collectible in the future", in that case you should never be disappointed.

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Post Posted: Tue Apr 04, 2006 12:51 am 
 

Howdy,


Regarding the right to copy and resell or republish anything:

N.B. The auction is for the physical artifact only, all intellectual property rights are retained by Mr. Kuntz. Parties interested in pursuing publication, presentation, or any other public "use" or distribution of his intellectual property must gain the permission of Mr. Kuntz first. Such contact will be through the seller: click on "ask seller a question" above.



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Post Posted: Tue Apr 04, 2006 1:23 am 
 

Howdy Brian,


bclarkie wrote:Well let me pipe in because it was my post that started this...


If you are dissatisfied I will be happy to give you a full refund, including shipping for the return of the item. Just send back the item and I will send the refund. Simple as that. Sorry for the misunderstanding.


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Post Posted: Tue Apr 04, 2006 1:31 am 
 

Howdy Frank,


Deadlord39 wrote:This is why I don't usually buy "personal" items. Too easy to duplicate.


Yes, finding a blank copy of an in-house TSR rules sheet from 1975 that sells for $500/pad by itself and then get Rob Kuntz himself to write up by hand his character sheet from original notes, put together a dated, numbered, cataloged, photo-documented Letter of Authentication signed in two different colored inks by the Authorized Auctioneer and Rob Kuntz, is too easy to duplicate.

Frank. You are brilliant. ...and good for a laugh. Thanks. :lol:


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Post Posted: Tue Apr 04, 2006 1:40 am 
 

Howdy Frank,


Deadlord39 wrote:Why not make copies of YOUR copy and sell them?
At this rate, in a year or so, we can all have copies of copies of copies of the original copy of the copy of the character sheets of the people who first played D&D.


Patently ridiculous. Rob hand wrote those sheets. They are not photocopies. They have provenance and paper documentation. Further, all intellectual property of Rob is strictly off limits to any but Rob:

N.B. The auction is for the physical artifact only, all intellectual property rights are retained by Mr. Kuntz. Parties interested in pursuing publication, presentation, or any other public "use" or distribution of his intellectual property must gain the permission of Mr. Kuntz first. Such contact will be through the seller: click on "ask seller a question" above.



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Post Posted: Tue Apr 04, 2006 1:43 am 
 

Nothing like an auction the the Springtime! It's like rutting season.


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Post Posted: Tue Apr 04, 2006 1:59 am 
 

Howdy Frank,


Deadlord39 wrote:
The Collector's Trove wrote:
As stated, only three. No more. Two have already been sold so this is the last.



Didn't Hitler say that when he invaded Poland?


Oh, yes that is an astute observation: Paul (seller of rare games) = Hitler (despotic, insane, murderer). I guess I just need to gas a million Jews and I'm there eh Frank?

You are indeed brilliant.


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Post Posted: Tue Apr 04, 2006 2:17 am 
 

Hey Paul, can you provide some more info on the "Worlds Within" columns---were these from Troll, or Crusader, somewhere else, or simply unpublished pieces?

Also, which card is missing from the FtA set?  

I'll post more Qs as they come up.


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Post Posted: Tue Apr 04, 2006 8:32 am 
 

grodog wrote:
kevin mayle wrote:I don't get it?!? All that work. All that historical significance. Sitting around all these years and no one would publish it?!? What the eff?!? Now it's going to be split up and squirrelled away forever. What a loss.


That's not necessarily true, on a few fronts:  Rob tried to work with TSR to publish many of his projects, but he was basically cut out from that option when Gary was forcibly removed from the company.  Rob has published some of his work since, and will continue to do so, hopefully with Tadashi and me as well as other publishers.



Since this topic has been raised again...

I am assuming you are talking about printing D&D material that does not conform to D20 v3.5.  Is that legal? I know we had this discussion on a separate thread - well, sort of, anyway. I don't think the question was answered.

I am talking about publishing material that directly applies to OD&D, Basic D&D, AD&D or even 2nd Ed. AD&D. Not some generic fantasy supplement that skirts the copyright regulations. Again, by what I am reading, I see you as stating Kuntz or whoever wants to publish this old material and sell it directly as D&D supplements or modules.


And I could've bought these damn modules off the 1$ rack!!!

New modules for your Old School game http://pacesettergames.com/

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Post Posted: Tue Apr 04, 2006 8:45 am 
 

Obviously a joke..........
But again, there is NOTHING preventing further copies of character sheets being created. The fact that several people paid a lot of money for them should be reason enough for no additional copies. Had these individuals known that more copies would be produced, would they have paid $500+? No, they would have either bid low or waited for another copy.


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Post Posted: Tue Apr 04, 2006 9:32 am 
 

The Collector's Trove wrote:If you are dissatisfied I will be happy to give you a full refund, including shipping for the return of the item.


Very glad to see it's being handled professionally and properly.

This is what I'd do, too... and what we have done at the GenCon auction, on those rare occasions.

:D

  

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Post Posted: Tue Apr 04, 2006 10:31 am 
 

Deadlord39 wrote:Obviously a joke..........
But again, there is NOTHING preventing further copies of character sheets being created. The fact that several people paid a lot of money for them should be reason enough for no additional copies. Had these individuals known that more copies would be produced, would they have paid $500+? No, they would have either bid low or waited for another copy.


We all know each other here. There are no unknown participants in the transactions unless a sale goes to an outsider.

For all concerned it is a matter of trust and reputation. I for one am willing to buy on faith alone, given what I know of all the parties involved.


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Post Posted: Tue Apr 04, 2006 4:00 pm 
 

The Collector's Trove wrote:Howdy Frank,
Deadlord39 wrote:
The Collector's Trove wrote:As stated, only three. No more. Two have already been sold so this is the last.

Didn't Hitler say that when he invaded Poland?

Oh, yes that is an astute observation: Paul (seller of rare games) = Hitler (despotic, insane, murderer).

He was obviously not equating you to that aspect of Hitler.  Rather than comparing you to Hitler, Frank should have compared you to Microsoft and the "feature creep/software bloat" that accompanies each of their products.  Microsoft doesn't quite fit the comparison, but it's more apropos than Hitler.

I don't necessarily agree with Frank's point-of-view.  If you were perceived to have ripped someone off or gone back on your promise about a limited-production item, people here would never again (publicly) buy anything you tried to sell.  Everyone one would wonder if you were trying to pull a fast one.

Didn't Mel Brooks have a Hitler joke?  Something along the lines of "Hitler said all he wanted was a little peace . . . a little piece of Poland, a little piece of France . . ."

  
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