Trademark Symbol on OD&D Supplements
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Post Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2006 9:22 pm 
 

Can anyone confirm on which printings of the OD&D supplements that the trademark symbol ® starts to appear next to the Dungeons & Dragons name? Knowing might help to identify the printing from a cover scan.

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Post Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2006 9:40 pm 
 

This isn't a confirmation of any sort, but Holmes D&D might be an assist here.  In the second print, there is an asterisk and a mention of the trademark being applied for.  The third print has the registered trademark symbol.

It stands to reason that any supplement printed prior to 1979 will not have a trademark symbol.



  


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Post Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2006 11:35 pm 
 

There's a lot of public trademark information available at www.uspto.gov.

Try this:

http://tess2.uspto.gov/bin/gate.exe?f=s ... 4jito9.1.1

Search for "Dungeons and Dragons". 31 results. #30:

Typed Drawing
Word Mark         DUNGEONS & DRAGONS
Goods and Services         IC 016. US 038. G & S: PRINTED INSTRUCTIONAL BOOKLET FOR THE PLAYING OF FANTASY WAR GAMES. FIRST USE: 19740115. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19740115
Mark Drawing Code         (1) TYPED DRAWING
Design Search Code        
Serial Number         73123558
Filing Date         April 21, 1977
Current Filing Basis         1A
Original Filing Basis         1A
Registration Number         1092786
Registration Date         June 6, 1978
Owner         (REGISTRANT) TSR HOBBIES, INC. CORPORATION WISCONSIN P.O. BOX 756 330 CENTER ST. LAKE GENEVA WISCONSIN 53147

(LAST LISTED OWNER) TSR, INC. CORPORATION BY CHANGE OF NAME WISCONSIN C/O WIZARDS OF THE COAST P.O. BOX 707 RENTON WASHINGTON 980570707
Assignment Recorded         ASSIGNMENT RECORDED
Type of Mark         TRADEMARK
Register         PRINCIPAL
Affidavit Text         SECT 15. SECT 8 (6-YR).
Renewal         1ST RENEWAL 20010301
Live/Dead Indicator         LIVE

Interesting, but I dunno if will help with identifying prints.

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Post Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 9:10 am 
 

zhowar wrote:There's a lot of public trademark information available at www.uspto.gov.

FIRST USE: 19740115.
FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19740115


15 January 1974 looks like an interesting date, to me:  it's not just 1 January 1974, so I wonder if that date is actually relevant to the availability of the 1st printing woodgrain sets (vs. the prepubs, which would logically not have been generally available then??).  

Or, am I trying to push this info too far? :D


Allan Grohe ([email protected])
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Editor and Project Manager, Black Blade Publishing
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Post Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 12:53 pm 
 

CGOULD42 wrote:Can anyone confirm on which printings of the OD&D supplements that the trademark symbol ® starts to appear next to the Dungeons & Dragons name? Knowing might help to identify the printing from a cover scan.

I'll check when I get home.  I think it was the 5th/6th Greyhawk, but it may have been much earlier.

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Post Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 3:27 pm 
 

Very cool! The trademark history definitely helps and has opened up some other inquiry areas. I wonder if the June 6, 1978 Registration date was the point when TSR started adding the registration mark. Using the print dates indicated in the Acaeum the printings indicated in bold bellow should be the printings where the ® symbol starts to appear. I unfortunately don't have any of these printings or the printing prior. If anyone has these please check.

Thanks,
Curt

Greyhawk       
9th 5/78        
10th 11/78

Blackmoor
5th 3/78        
6th 8/78                                     
      
Eldritch        
5th 3/78        
6th 7/78                           

Gods        
4th 5/78        
5th  ?        
6th 11/78                                            

Swords        
3rd 3/78        
4th 8/78

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Post Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 3:36 pm 
 

grodog wrote:15 January 1974 looks like an interesting date, to me:  it's not just 1 January 1974, so I wonder if that date is actually relevant to the availability of the 1st printing woodgrain sets (vs. the prepubs, which would logically not have been generally available then??).

There are no prepubs, just early release copies (different size/ink colors on the covers), afaik.

Yes, I'd noticed that date, too, Allan ;)
Would be interested to know whether that equates to registration (or estimated first publication date) as opposed to actual first publication date.
*
Am guessing the former, as appears to be the case on the 1st Greyhawk copyright docs. For those, the stated publication date is 15th January 1975 (yeah, exactly one year later! :roll:), but the application is retrospective (copyright document actually dated Jan 28 1977).
The telling piece of paper is the royalty document for Greyhawk which is dated 7th April 1975 (actual date) between EGG and RJK. April fits the stocklist and other context quite closely, January doesn't. I doubt Greyhawk was released three months before a royalty agreement was signed and the tense used throughout implies it's still not released as of that date.

I'd be willing to bet "1/15/74" fits that pattern, too (but in that can the secondary evidence re. actual release date vs. putative release rate is weaker: Wargamer's Digest #7 contents, dearth of players who started in early/mid 74, etc.).

Thanks v.m. for the link, zhowar.

  


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Post Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 3:50 pm 
 

CGOULD42 wrote:I wonder if the June 6, 1978 Registration date was the point when TSR started adding the registration mark.

That's a very good guess.

It's definitely between 03/78 and 11/78.  See Acaeum photos of Blackmoor (5th-7th, with TM, making the appearance sometime before 11/78 ) and Swords & Spells (3rd/4th, No TM, making the appearance after 03/78 ).  

I'm assuming that the registration mark wasn't considered when listing the given printings on the site.  I will narrow it down further and more accurately when I compare my notes with the timing of the Product Code appearance on the lower right, and my personal copies.  Gonna be a fun night. :)
[edit] stupid smilies.

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Post Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 3:58 pm 
 

faro wrote:*
Am guessing the former, as appears to be the case on the 1st Greyhawk copyright docs. For those, the stated publication date is 15th January 1975 (yeah, exactly one year later! :roll:), but the application is retrospective (copyright document actually dated Jan 28 1977).


David, I don't remember the details of the auction description.  Were those copyright docs specifically for the 1st printing of the Greyhawk supplement?

  

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Post Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 4:00 pm 
 

bombadil wrote:David, I don't remember the details of the auction description.  Were those copyright docs specifically for the 1st printing of the Greyhawk supplement?

Yes.
I did mean "publication date", per the copyright registration form.

Sensible question, Stephen, given the previous question is re. trademark as opposed to copyright :)

  


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Post Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 4:07 pm 
 

faro wrote:
bombadil wrote:David, I don't remember the details of the auction description.  Were those copyright docs specifically for the 1st printing of the Greyhawk supplement?

Yes.
I did mean "publication date", per the copyright registration form.

Sensible question, Stephen, given the previous question is re. trademark as opposed to copyright :)


Thanks.  Just checking.

That was a nice win, by the way.

  

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Post Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 4:14 pm 
 

(somewhat aside from above re. TM date...)

bombadil wrote:Thanks.  Just checking.

thx ;)

The interesting section on the Greyhawk supplement royalties doc. is that the ownership of copyright is stated to "revert to the author(s) not more than 90 days after the set of game rules or game is no longer maintained in-print".

Things to make you go hmmm.....
(It is a standard form).

  

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Post Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 6:58 pm 
 

Lets see what I can find

Greyhawk 9th print
Blackmoor 5th print
Eldritch Wizardry 5th print
Gods, Demi-gods & Heroes 4th print
Swords & Spells 3rd print

Hope that helps

Mike

edit> these are the first ones to show the trademark symbol  :wink:

  


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Post Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 8:11 pm 
 

Traveller wrote:This isn't a confirmation of any sort, but Holmes D&D might be an assist here.  In the second print, there is an asterisk and a mention of the trademark being applied for.  The third print has the registered trademark symbol.

It stands to reason that any supplement printed prior to 1979 will not have a trademark symbol.

This is useful info taken in context.  However, the Holmes third print was printed in May 1978.

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Post Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 8:22 pm 
 

chromaticknight wrote:Lets see what I can find

Greyhawk 9th print
Blackmoor 5th print
Eldritch Wizardry 5th print
Gods, Demi-gods & Heroes 4th print
Swords & Spells 3rd print

Hope that helps

Mike


Thanks Mike.

This kills my theory that the point of addition of the symbol is 1978-June but it is probably close. Perhaps around the beginning of 1978.

Cheers,
Curt

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Post Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 9:00 pm 
 

CGOULD42 wrote:This kills my theory that the point of addition of the symbol is 1978-June but it is probably close. Perhaps around the beginning of 1978.


Not sure I understand ChromaticKnight's list.  Are those the printings that don't have the registration mark, or do?  :?



[edit]Nevermind.  Figured it out.  Btw, this auction is very helpful, too:



http://cgi.ebay.com/Lot-of-early-Vintag ... dZViewItem

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Post Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 9:18 pm 
 

It's becoming clear.  They removed the price from the cover at the same time they added the registration mark.  Sometime in March, 1978.

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Post Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 9:34 pm 
 

Hrrrrm…I was hoping the cover changes were a little more spread out to create more distinguishable printing differences. Oh well, still interesting  :D

I am only guessing at this point but I would bet that the product number addition in the lower right hand corner probably occurred at the same time as well.

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Post Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 9:44 pm 
 

CGOULD42 wrote:Hrrrrm…I was hoping the cover changes were a little more spread out to create more distinguishable printing differences. Oh well, still interesting  :D

I am only guessing at this point but I would bet that the product number addition in the lower right hand corner probably occurred at the same time as well.

The product code is a little earlier:
http://www.acaeum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=46751#46751

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Post Posted: Thu Mar 02, 2006 1:24 am 
 

faro wrote:I'd be willing to bet "1/15/74" fits that pattern, too (but in that can the secondary evidence re. actual release date vs. putative release rate is weaker: Wargamer's Digest #7 contents, dearth of players who started in early/mid 74, etc.).


"dearth of players who started in early/mid 74"

   This is why the information in publications like the Domesday Book is so important.  The list of members needs to be tracked down and the members interviewed.  Frustrating to have these things out of reach.

Mark


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