Sellers who infringed upon copyrights; reported. • Page 56 • Collecting General • The Acaeum

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Sellers who infringed upon copyrights; reported.
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Deadlord
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Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2006 9:41 pm

reply #1:

They make no mention of what to do or not to do. They are just an outlet for the PDFs. I believe once the files are owned, you can do with them as you wish. Please forward me the e-mail that you are referring to if possible. I am curious to see it. There are a couple of pranksters on eBay and this may be a ruse.

Thanks.

Reply #2:

If you can, I still would like to see the e-mail you say you received... However, I have deleted all auctions that you won -- I will not leave negative feedback or begin a non-payment dispute. I will not be offering the items as this is whole thing is stupid.

Sorry for the inconvenience. Take care.

I love the smell of PDF's in the morning. Smells like........ victory.

deimos3428
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Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2006 10:02 pm

Deadlord39 wrote:I love the smell of PDF's in the morning. Smells like........ victory.

Nice one, Frank.

Lordan
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Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2006 10:19 pm

deimos3428 wrote:
Deadlord39 wrote:I love the smell of PDF's in the morning. Smells like........ victory.

Nice one, Frank.

well done my friend ! , seeing I'm piss drunk atm I will go drink another to you as we desend further into tharacia ( sic on anything actuaually ?>).

Beyondthebreach
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Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2006 4:48 am

Deadlord39 wrote:I did send it to eBay. What I am going to try and get is someone at that useless place eBay calls their central office whom I can contact with infringement information on a regular basis.
BTW, this is what I wrote earlier:

I'm being told that PDF auctions are illegal and considered copyright infringement. I was also told you were reported to eBay. Is this true? I don't want to get into any trouble for buying illegal items.

And the hammerhead's reply:

No they are not illegal, as long as you are the owner of the copyright, which I am as the items were purchased from RPG Now and I have an individual license number for each. You will not get in trouble for buying illegal items as they are not illegal -- all files have a copyright license number on them similar to buying a license for computer software. Who told you this, just out of curiosity?

Take care,
CGS

So I guess Microsoft has it all wrong. If you own a copy of Windows, you're licensed to sell it to whomever you want. I better ring up Billy and let him know.
So, should I point the fool to the Acaeum and let him see what's been going on?

I am not saying this guy is right, but it does raise an interesting question. If you did buy a download from RPG now I am assuming they would give you a "single-use" license (I am making up that term) or something of that nature. Wouldn't you be entitled to sell the item one time, provided you deleted it from your computer? It would be the same as buying a hardcover book and selling it to someone else. The difference, of course, is that it is much is easier to make copies of pdfs.

It would also be the same as buying Windows XP, installing it and then selling your computer and transfering the product code and license. I think all software allows for licenses to be transferred.

Again, I am not saying that is what is going on in this particular case, just wondering about the legalities of the situation I just described.

"Gleemonex makes it feel like it's seventy-two degrees in your head... all... the... time! "

Deadlord
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Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2006 8:38 am

That's exactly right, Breach. You can sell it once.
Just about all software falls under the same guidelines. Certain licenses allow you to install on multiple machines, but almost never are you allowed to install on a computer that is not yours.

guerret
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Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2006 1:00 pm

Deadlord39 wrote:So I guess Microsoft has it all wrong. If you own a copy of Windows, you're licensed to sell it to whomever you want.

Sell or, rather, give it freely to everyone. Isn't this the way it usually works with Microsoft software?

guerret
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Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2006 1:01 pm

Lordan wrote:
deimos3428 wrote:Nice one, Frank.

well done my friend ! , seeing I'm piss drunk atm I will go drink another to you as we desend further into tharacia ( sic on anything actuaually ?>).

What was it we were saying a few days ago about not posting while drunk?

guerret
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Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2006 1:10 pm

Beyondthebreach wrote:I am not saying this guy is right, but it does raise an interesting question. If you did buy a download from RPG now I am assuming they would give you a "single-use" license (I am making up that term) or something of that nature. Wouldn't you be entitled to sell the item one time, provided you deleted it from your computer? It would be the same as buying a hardcover book and selling it to someone else. The difference, of course, is that it is much is easier to make copies of pdfs.

It would also be the same as buying Windows XP, installing it and then selling your computer and transfering the product code and license. I think all software allows for licenses to be transferred.

Again, I am not saying that is what is going on in this particular case, just wondering about the legalities of the situation I just described.

Ok, let's talk serious. Beyondthebreach, you are totally correct. Most software licenses come with a single use license. So if you sell the software to another entity you must delete it from your computer (theoretically, at least). Actually, there are some software licenses which bind the software to a specific hardware, and you cannot legally transfer it to another machine, but those are agreements with ths OEMs.

I don't know how legal PDF copies are covered by a license (maybe that's written somewhere?), but I would assume they must be treated as books are. You are the single owner and you can not distribute copies of it. The laws about private backup allow you to create a copy of the item, in any format you want them, but only for personal, backup use. This unless the creation of the copies forces you to circumvent any copy-protection system, because this is forbidden by the DMCA (which is crap because it contradicts the laws about private backup to the detriment of the user, so I never care about the DMCA but I rather follow the private backup law).

Lewisexi
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Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2006 8:18 pm

Interesting point here...

In certain cases the seller of .pdf's claims the onus for responisiblity of buying, and thus owning, the files is with the buyer and as long as the buyer owns the original items already then in effect all you're buying is the sellers work in translating books you already own on to a convenient readable pc-based format. In alot of cases I do indeed own all the books for the files I might buy from the seller but, crucially to me from a legal point of veiw, I would be unable prove that I owned the copied works (which would be clearly visible from the both Ebay transaction and the Windows creation date on the files themselves) subsequently to the acquisition of the original works.

In cases where the buyer claims to have sold you the license for the product (i.e the files) without having access to the buyers hard data you'd be facing a long uphill battle to match codes and to prove in any sense you were now the eventual end user of that product. Buying in goodfaith is an Ebay ideal not a legal one!

Caveat Emptor!

Presonally I love to own the real item but that's just me I guess

guerret
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Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2006 8:40 pm

Lewisexi wrote:I would be unable prove that I owned the copied works (which would be clearly visible from the both Ebay transaction and the Windows creation date on the files themselves) subsequently to the acquisition of the original works.

The Windows file creation date is the proof of nothing, as it is very easily hackable. The eBay transaction date is quite pointless after eBay removes all tracks of a transaction except the feedback.

In any case, formally speaking, you are not allowed to own a copy of copyrighted material IF YOU DID NOT CREATE IT YOURSELF, or at least if it was not created from your copy. That is, for example, even if you own a certain CD, you are not allowed to download the music tracks from the Internet, although you can create the very same tracks using your own CD. The result is the same, but one way is illegal, the other one is not.

You think it's stupid? It is. Welcome to law.

That being said, one type of crime is illegally owning copyrighted material, another totally different one is obtaining backup copies in ways which would theoretically be illegal. As long as you have paid the right for something, you may have a backup copy, and that right in my eye supersedes any other rule (well, almost... you can't kill someone to get his backups).

deimos3428
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Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2006 9:16 pm

Beyondthebreach wrote:If you did buy a download from RPG now I am assuming they would give you a "single-use" license (I am making up that term) or something of that nature. Wouldn't you be entitled to sell the item one time, provided you deleted it from your computer? It would be the same as buying a hardcover book and selling it to someone else. The difference, of course, is that it is much is easier to make copies of pdfs.

It would also be the same as buying Windows XP, installing it and then selling your computer and transfering the product code and license. I think all software allows for licenses to be transferred.

Assume nothing. It is ambiguous in the US courts. It has not been conclusively determined whether the sale of software is a sale of goods (and thus transferable via "first-sale doctrine"), or the sale of a license (in which case rights are determined by that licence, if explicitly stated.)

In the case of digital documents, where no physical copy exists (such as downloaded PDFs), it would be very difficult for any judge to rule in favor of a sale of goods.

I haven't actually read Microsoft's EULA for Windows XP, but I wouldn't be surprised to learn it isn't transferable to another machine. (If both machines are yours, do it anyway -- they don't seem to mind.)
See here for waaay too much info:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-sale_doctri ... r_software

deimos3428
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Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2006 9:42 pm

guerret wrote:You think it's stupid? It is. Welcome to law.

That being said, one type of crime is illegally owning copyrighted material, another totally different one is obtaining backup copies in ways which would theoretically be illegal. As long as you have paid the right for something, you may have a backup copy, and that right in my eye supersedes any other rule (well, almost... you can't kill someone to get his backups).

It's even stupider* than that. Despite what the aggressive "anti-piracy" ad campaigns might lead you to believe, copyright infringement is not theft. Don't get me wrong, it's still bad. Feel free to tell your kids it's theft, but that's not a legal definition:

http://www.mp3newswire.net/stories/5002/theft.html

It's illegal to reproduce and distribute copyrighted material without the license. Simple possession of copyrighted material is not illegal in the US, unlike stolen property.

It is illegal in the UK, if it is in possession "in the course of a business". (Chap. II, 23(a) of the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act, 1988.) No such provision exists in the US Code, as far as I'm aware.

opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts1988/Ukpga_1988004 ... htm#mdiv23

*I know, I know "more stupid". I was going for irony.

NetRodent
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Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2006 11:40 pm

Here's a great one...

"No more books all over the table like in the photo when writing or taking part in an epic campaign because all the below 2nd edition Advanced Dungeon and Dragon Books are in an electronic format -- forget bring loads of books to a gaming session, just print off the pages you need. (laid out exactly like the books but without the art work)"

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 8772772621

And from another of his auctions:

"@@--@@ NOTE TO EBAY STAFF - THE ABOVE MATERIAL IS IN THE PUBLIC DOMAIN @@--@@"

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 8772777045

NetRodent
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Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2006 11:45 pm

guerret wrote:Actually I made several reports to this guy, but he never replied to me. I believe he doesn't care that much.

Maybe there's someone higher up who can take care of HIM?

I think the poster 'mearls' works for WOTC. It might make sense to ask him who the reports should be sent to.

guerret
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Posted: Mon Mar 06, 2006 5:35 am

deimos3428 wrote:Simple possession of copyrighted material is not illegal in the US, unlike stolen property.

Good for you. It is under European laws.

mbassoc2003
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Posted: Mon Mar 06, 2006 6:29 am

Possession of copyrighted material is not illegal in Scotland either, but distribution and use of copyrighted material is illegal.

This week I've been mostly eating . . . The white ones with the little red flecks in them.

FormCritic
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Posted: Mon Mar 06, 2006 8:30 pm

NetRodent wrote:Here's a great one...

[ Image ]

"No more books all over the table like in the photo when writing or taking part in an epic campaign because all the below 2nd edition Advanced Dungeon and Dragon Books are in an electronic format -- forget bring loads of books to a gaming session, just print off the pages you need. (laid out exactly like the books but without the art work)"

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 8772772621

And from another of his auctions:

"@@--@@ NOTE TO EBAY STAFF - THE ABOVE MATERIAL IS IN THE PUBLIC DOMAIN @@--@@"

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 8772777045

I think there is a group of guys out there who honestly believe that "Open License" means "License to Steal."

"But I have watched the dragons come, fire-eyed, across the world."

Deadlord
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Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 12:59 pm

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 8773400486

Another dumbass.....
I might have to get in touch with pdfkilla again. This sort of stuff needs a dedicated account.

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