Is EBay finally getting whats coming to them?
Post new topic Reply to topic Page 1 of 31, 2, 3
Author


Grandstanding Collector
Acaeum Donor

Posts: 6463
Joined: Dec 13, 2004
Last Visit: Dec 25, 2019

Post Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 10:59 pm 
 

I just saw this on line and thought it was very interesting:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nf/20060131/tc_nf/41321

Gawd, I hope EBay loses this lawsuit. I am so feckin sick of the "It's not our responsiblilty to police out own site" attitude, I could vommit. Image


"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." -Neitzche

  

User avatar

Verbose Collector
Acaeum Donor

Posts: 1250
Joined: Jan 01, 2003
Last Visit: Jan 08, 2021

Post Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:17 pm 
 

If eBay loses we'll all be back to selling/buying on frp.marketplace and here.... that may turn out quite nicely.

  


Prolific Collector

Posts: 671
Joined: Dec 17, 2005
Last Visit: Feb 13, 2019
Location: Italy

Post Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 6:36 am 
 

I don't agree with this. eBay is just a means of selling/purchasing. I am sure that when they discover something wrong they take their own precautions, but monitoring every listing would be impossible, or at least, it would introduce excessive delays is listings.

Then, why doesn't Tiffany issue a cause against Tim Berners-Lee for creating the World Wide Web? Or to Vinton Cerf and Robert Kahn for the TCP/IP protocol? If these did not exist, then these sales would not be possible, after all.

 ICQ  


Grandstanding Collector
Acaeum Donor

Posts: 6463
Joined: Dec 13, 2004
Last Visit: Dec 25, 2019

Post Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 6:42 am 
 

guerret wrote:I don't agree with this. eBay is just a means of selling/purchasing. I am sure that when they discover something wrong they take their own precautions, but monitoring every listing would be impossible, or at least, it would introduce excessive delays is listings.

Then, why doesn't Tiffany issue a cause against Tim Berners-Lee for creating the World Wide Web? Or to Vinton Cerf and Robert Kahn for the TCP/IP protocol? If these did not exist, then these sales would not be possible, after all.


My point is this, do I expect EBay to take down every listing as soon as it comes up? No. But, I do expect that they should take action within a reasonable time frame to take down auctions that are reported as being fake. Have you ever tried reporting an illegal pdf auction? I have, lots of time, and you 5 times out of 10 they are not taken down. I have reported auctions 10 diffent ways for 10 different reasons, and the reposne a lot of times is the same: nothing. I am sorry obviously you can't take every auction down immediately if you are not sure as to whether or not it is illegal/fake, but seriously, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to be able to realize that: pdf of any copyrighted work + CD/DVD= Illegal.


"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." -Neitzche

  

User avatar

Grandstanding Collector

Posts: 8219
Joined: Jan 21, 2005
Last Visit: Jun 12, 2017
Location: Wallasey, Merseyside, UK

Post Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 7:01 am 
 

with BC on this one. i have also tried umpteen times to try and make them aware of fake items or illegal items and i dont even have the 5 out of 10 rate BC has, mine is more like 3 out of 10. at the end of the day, why should you have to do this?

they make MORE than enough money per minute, that they could employ ppl who KNOW what they are talking about to oversee their operations with a much more efficient hand.

you would then get far more satisfaction from the ppl who use ebay too.

Alan



  

User avatar

Verbose Collector

Posts: 1271
Joined: Jan 09, 2005
Last Visit: Nov 17, 2020
Location: Azeroth

Post Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 7:05 am 
 

bclarkie wrote:
guerret wrote:I don't agree with this. eBay is just a means of selling/purchasing. I am sure that when they discover something wrong they take their own precautions, but monitoring every listing would be impossible, or at least, it would introduce excessive delays is listings.

Then, why doesn't Tiffany issue a cause against Tim Berners-Lee for creating the World Wide Web? Or to Vinton Cerf and Robert Kahn for the TCP/IP protocol? If these did not exist, then these sales would not be possible, after all.


My point is this, do I expect EBay to take down every listing as soon as it comes up? No. But, I do expect that they should take action within a reasonable time frame to take down auctions that are reported as being fake. Have you ever tried reporting an illegal pdf auction? I have, lots of time, and you 5 times out of 10 they are not taken down. I have reported auctions 10 diffent ways for 10 different reasons, and the reposne a lot of times is the same: nothing. I am sorry obviously you can't take every auction down immediately if you are not sure as to whether or not it is illegal/fake, but seriously, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to be able to realize that: pdf of any copyrighted work + CD/DVD= Illegal.


I would agree but there has to be an allowance for research. How does eBay verify the allegation. What is to stop a seller from reporting competitors auctions that might be of the same item.  I have to think it is a slippery slope we walk on when things like this start to occur. I have to think that people and companies should look a little further down the road to see where actions such as this might lead before they instigate them.


Information Superhighway - A Rough Whimper of Insanity - Scott Hansen

  

User avatar

Long-Winded Collector
Acaeum Donor

Posts: 3590
Joined: Dec 20, 2003
Last Visit: Jan 17, 2021
Location: Canada

Post Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 10:06 am 
 

This is a very complicated issue, Games Workshop (you know Warhammer and stuff) has banned any retailer they supply to from listing any discounted price for there items online in the US (some still do but many have been stopped).

This is a ploy by Tiffany to reduce the aftersales market of there junk!  Nothing more.  Simple business decision.  In the past people would hold on to Tiffany items as heirlooms, get them insured for stupid amounts, whatever.  Tiffany has a vested interest to stop mass marketing of there old stuff, people begin to realize how common it is and prices will go down on the new stuff and old stuff. (you know the old supply/demand deal)

For us it is different, we need place like Ebay to shop for our old treasures.  Without Ebay there is virtually no market place to buy and trade old RPG's safely.  The old RPG marketplace was crap, I got ripped off 30% of the time with no recourse at all.

Do not wish that Ebay gets there net worth sued away over this, for collectors like us it would be devestating.

My 2 cents

J


Games can get you through times of no money but money can not get you through times of no games!!

 WWW  

User avatar

Grandstanding Collector

Posts: 5613
Joined: Jun 30, 2003
Last Visit: Jan 15, 2021
Location: New Hampsha

Post Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 11:01 am 
 

The old way was pre-Paypal. Forum-based trading would not only be safe, but FAR cheaper for all of us. People who screw others over on trades/sales do not survive long on forums, but they sure as shit flourish like bacteria on eBay, so personally I would prefer a return to the old ways.

Hmmm, eBay's accountability. Let's see........
I throw a party, and charge $10 admission. Hundreds of people show up. I do not keep track of who comes, or what they do. People are doing drugs in my bathroom, and I know about it, but I'm not responsible. Someone shoots someone, but I'm not responsible. I am merely providing a place for people to party, for a profit.

The law does not see it that way. I can be sued by the person who was shot, because I failed to provide adequate security. If I throw a party for FREE, that is a bit different, but if I provide a venue for profit, I AM liable for what occurs there. If this were not true, there would be no need for security checks at concerts. And Great White would not be in so much trouble, nor would the club owners.
Infringements of copyright are 99% common sense. I'm sorry, but it pretty fukin obvious when someone posts a stack of PDF's that they are illegal. The simplest way to alleviate this issue would be for eBay to ban ALL sales of PDF's unless they are on the ORIGINAL CD. Alternately, a poster could be required to submit a statement to eBay that the material they are selling is legal. That way, if an issue about copyright arises, not only is eBay covered, but the copyright owner has concrete evidence for a court case.
This is a perfect example of how the American lack of accountability works. It's so inane, and so obvious, that it is almost amusing. I'm sure there are plenty of non-American companies who use the same tactics, but in the US, not only countries but individuals swear by lack of accountability. We all have heard of the dumb broad who got a coffee at McDonald's drive-thru, spilled it on herself and sued them. And won millions.  

Breaking News:
COFFEE IS FUCKING HOT.

And yet the blame doesn't fall on the old bag, but on McD's, who committed the horrendous crime of serving, you guessed it, hot coffee, and not informing the customers with neon signs that the coffee was, ummm, hot. I guess she had never had coffee before, so she didn't know it is served hot.

So yes, even though eBay should not be liable for people selling counterfeit gewgaws labeled as Tifffany, they most certainly could do something to make it far more difficult and risky to do so. If I can come up with 2 different ways off the top of my head, I'm pretty sure they can do the same or better.
Tiffany has a vested interest in anyone selling counterfeits. They have no interest in antique items, since they already made their profit on those in the original sales. They are concerned about counterfeits for the same reason we are concerned about PDF's. For every person who buys a counterfeit Tiffany item, Tiffany loses a potential sale. Makes pretty good business sense to me.

 WWW  


Prolific Collector

Posts: 671
Joined: Dec 17, 2005
Last Visit: Feb 13, 2019
Location: Italy

Post Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 11:50 am 
 

Here's why I like to have coffee warm.

 ICQ  

User avatar

Grandstanding Collector

Posts: 5613
Joined: Jun 30, 2003
Last Visit: Jan 15, 2021
Location: New Hampsha

Post Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 11:56 am 
 

You might want to avoid McDonald's then.

 WWW  


Prolific Collector

Posts: 671
Joined: Dec 17, 2005
Last Visit: Feb 13, 2019
Location: Italy

Post Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 12:34 pm 
 

Actually, when I eat McDonald's, I have my coffee somewhere else (home, or a bar). You know, we Italians are a bit whimsical about coffee (and most of us can't tolerate that American dyed water).

 ICQ  


Sage Collector
Acaeum Donor

Posts: 2884
Joined: Nov 04, 2004
Last Visit: May 09, 2020

Post Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 3:05 pm 
 

As a collecting community, we absolutely do NOT want eBay to lose this lawsuit. The argument Tiffany is presenting attacks the foundation that supports the entire eBay structure: namely, that eBay is simply a venue. If that foundation is brought down and eBay is somehow forced to monitor every auction on the site (and exactly how would that work, BTW? would every item for sale have to be sent to Mountain View, CA for verification?), then its costs will skyrocket. And of the two groups of people eBay must report to — shareholders and users — guess who will pick up the tab for those costs?



Addressing some interesting points:



Marlith wrote:I would agree but there has to be an allowance for research. How does eBay verify the allegation. What is to stop a seller from reporting competitors auctions that might be of the same item.

I'll take it a step further: if eBay loses this suit and is forced to act on every complaint it receives, then I'm reporting every single one of Cougar's auctions. Why? Because I don't like him. eBay will need to hire three more people just to keep up with the volume of my Cougar complaints. Sure, none of his auctions will actually get banned, but at least I'll have the satisfaction of keeping both eBay and Cougar constantly jumping through hoops.

Before you accuse me of excessive exaggeration, remind yourself that forcing eBay to monitor every item on its site is exactly what the Tiffany suit is about. I'm dead serious: if Tiffany (or another company down the road) forces this sort of change, I'm reporting every single auction from every single seller who has ever annoyed me.

Blackmoor wrote:This is a ploy by Tiffany to reduce the aftersales market of there junk! Nothing more. Simple business decision.

This is an important point. Tiffany is not some lawful good paladin out to help the little guy; Tiffany is interested solely in helping Tiffany. Which is something that, normally, I would have no problem with ... except that, in this case, it's going to raise my eBay fees by a factor of 10.

Deadlord36 wrote:Forum-based trading would not only be safe, but FAR cheaper for all of us. People who screw others over on trades/sales do not survive long on forums ...

Sure they do; they just change e-mail addresses (or whatever other identifying feature they need to change) and pretend they are someone else. To say rip-offs don't happen in the rec.games.marketplace arena is wishful thinking at its worst. At least eBay requires some level of identification before creating an account ... not to mention that it actually has a built-in feedback system. (Sorry, Frank, I don't mean it to sound like I'm singling you out; I'm just using your post as a springboard for an opinion I've had for years).

guerret wrote:Then, why doesn't Tiffany issue a cause against Tim Berners-Lee for creating the World Wide Web? Or to Vinton Cerf and Robert Kahn for the TCP/IP protocol?

Or here's some examples from other marketplace-style services: if my dream job turns out to have been misrepresented by the company, do I sue CareerBuilder? If my dream date turns out to have lied about her height and weight, do I sue Match.com?

bclarkie wrote:My point is this, do I expect EBay to take down every listing as soon as it comes up? No. But, I do expect that they should take action within a reasonable time frame to take down auctions that are reported as being fake.


Yes, eBay can be absolutely maddening at times, both in terms of enforcement and consistency. But, as with most things involving eBay, scale must be considered. To use you as an example, Brian: you are one eBay user who is an expert collector in one pretty specific area, thus allowing you to easily spot and report questionable items. No problems so far (and everyone here recognizes that your effort has helped stop some really questionable eBay activities).



However, now consider the galactic size of eBay. The latest figures I've seen indicate that eBay has ~175,000,000 members worldwide and ~60,000,000 items for sale at any given time. SIXTY MILLION! And that's a revolving figure — that's 60M right now, 60M tomorrow, 60M on March 1, 60M on July 23, 2009, etc., etc. Seriously, is it any wonder that your complaints often result in no action? The sheer volume of complaints — both legitimate and not — from 175 million users with 60 million potential targets must be staggering.



Should eBay hire more people to deal with complaints? Possibly. But remember who is going to absorb the cost of all those new salaries ...



+++++



The New York Times article on this subject is well worth a look, for those interested:



http://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/29/techn ... ted=1&_r=1

 WWW  


Prolific Collector

Posts: 617
Joined: Dec 14, 2005
Last Visit: Sep 02, 2020
Location: Behind you

Post Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 4:13 pm 
 

So you're just advocating backing down any time you get screwed over?
I suspect that Match.com will set you up with a new date if the other person blatantly lied. Ebay isn't going to refund you your money if someone lied. If Paypal cant retrieve your money you're screwed. Ebay's a straight up middle man. There's too many good arguements to be made pro or con about Ebay. I hope they lose.

  


Prolific Collector

Posts: 636
Joined: Sep 14, 2005
Last Visit: Jan 16, 2009
Location: Montreal, Canada

Post Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 4:35 pm 
 

Deadlord36 wrote:Alternately, a poster could be required to submit a statement to eBay that the material they are selling is legal. That way, if an issue about copyright arises, not only is eBay covered, but the copyright owner has concrete evidence for a court case.


I've never sold on Ebay so I don't know the terms for listing items, but I'd be very surprised if terms didn't require sellers to indemnify Ebay against any claims arising from that listing.  It seems common sense to include a clause that says, in short, you can't do anything illegal.

 WWW  


Sage Collector
Acaeum Donor

Posts: 2884
Joined: Nov 04, 2004
Last Visit: May 09, 2020

Post Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 4:36 pm 
 

Tharizdun wrote:So you're just advocating backing down any time you get screwed over?

Huh? Where exactly did I say that? :?

You've missed the point entirely: a lawsuit attacking the foundation upon which eBay rests is a potentially catastrophic thing for most of us. Should Tiffany win (and, again, they care only about Tiffany), the very least that's going to happen is a huge increase in fees. To quote one of the layers in the NY Times story:

"If eBay lost, or even if they settled and word got out that they settled, it would mean they would have to begin policing things sold over eBay, which would directly affect their business model. The cost implied is tremendous."

 WWW  

User avatar

Grandstanding Collector

Posts: 5613
Joined: Jun 30, 2003
Last Visit: Jan 15, 2021
Location: New Hampsha

Post Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 4:52 pm 
 

Never apologize for stating your opinion, Xax.
I'm pretty sure I already clarified a very simple method to alleviate most of the copyright issues.
60 million auctions at .25 per listing (minimum). So what you're saying is that they make 15 MILLION DOLLARS A DAY JUST IN LISTING FEES.
Are you shitting me? You can't seriously think that they can't afford to hire about 500 people who spend their time doing nothing but checking referred listings for potential issues, and dispensing warnings or suspensions to those who violate policies. Pay them $100 a day, and you get $50,000. Let's throw in benefits at $80 a day. $90,000. Wait, let's get them nice soft chairs, free beverages and a masseuse every 3 days. And let's double the pay to $200 a day. Whoa, that is around what, $180,000? Gee, I can see where that would break eBay's bank.
And I didn't even count fees for sold items.

 WWW  


Sage Collector
Acaeum Donor

Posts: 2884
Joined: Nov 04, 2004
Last Visit: May 09, 2020

Post Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 5:05 pm 
 

Deadlord36 wrote:60 million auctions at .25 per listing (minimum). So what you're saying is that they make 15 MILLION DOLLARS A DAY JUST IN LISTING FEES.


Well, not exactly. The 60 million figure is for auctions running at any one time, not auctions launched in a single day ... so, just as an example, that might mean 10 million were launched on Monday, 10 million on Tuesday, 10 million on Wednesday, etc., until it adds up to 60 million.



So your $15 million figure is considerably high, but beyond that, I really don't know enough about finance or accounting to carry the argument any further. I do know that running a business is expensive (I do it myself), but I can barely begin to comprehend the scale of eBay's business.



However, as a publicly trade company, eBay is required to file many, many financial statements, all of which are available upon demand. Anyone willing to do some digging could find out exactly what it costs eBay to run its business. Here's a potential starting point:



http://investor.ebay.com/fundamentals.cfm

 WWW  

User avatar

Sage Collector
Acaeum Donor

Posts: 2437
Joined: Nov 06, 2002
Last Visit: Jan 19, 2021
Location: Queensland, Australia

Post Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 5:09 pm 
 

The amount of illegial stuff sold on ebay is staggering. I look in the DVD section quite frequently and I suppost about 50% are are "Authorised Chinese Collectors Editions" or some such crap... the fakes are huge business not just 1 or 2 people... I 'd prob expect something along the lines that it you advertise something with certain name brands (ie tiffany) or wish to sell something in  a certain catagory (ie DVD's) then you will have to go through a more elaberate identification process and a declariation that the item is genuine, you might be limited to listing of only 1 item a week with certain identiting words if not.. and if you wish to become a platinum coated seller the same restrictions would apply..

Brette:)

 WWW  

User avatar

Grandstanding Collector
Acaeum Donor

Posts: 7942
Joined: Jun 23, 2003
Last Visit: Jan 19, 2021
Location: DFW TX

Post Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 5:26 pm 
 

Deadlord36 wrote:TheThis is a perfect example of how the American lack of accountability works. It's so inane, and so obvious, that it is almost amusing. I'm sure there are plenty of non-American companies who use the same tactics, but in the US, not only countries but individuals swear by lack of accountability. We all have heard of the dumb broad who got a coffee at McDonald's drive-thru, spilled it on herself and sued them. And won millions.

Breaking News:
COFFEE IS FUCKING HOT.

.


BTW, the old lady got a pittance on appeal...less than $400,000.   8O  The funniest part of the story, is that McDonalds brought it all on itself.  Her medical bills were $11 grand and they offered her $800 bucks.  An independent arbitrator recommended $200k.  Although McDonalds had previously settled over 700 cases resulting from hot coffee burns before this one, some genius in corporate decided no, we make our stand here.  McDonalds said no, bring us to court...and McDonalds got hammered.  No fricking kidding, giant conglomeration against poor little old lady with burns.  Whoever decided not to pay the broad off in the first place should have been fired.
  How this relates to the Ebay case, well it's going to be settled out of court I'm sure, Ebay certainly can't be as stupid as McDonalds was.  Although I don't like a lot of wht Ebay does and how they do it, please, how can I root for Tiffany.  Yeh, the seller of stratospheric overpriced jewelry and other froo-froo crap, boy are they they uhnderdog here.  It's all about money and don't think anything otherwise.  The fact is all the giant money making conglomerates hate ebay because it means money out of their pocket.  You think all the chains selling cds, dvds and such wouldn't be elated?  They could go back to charging $20 for a brand new cd.  If Ebay loses it just means higher fees for all of us, they aren't going to go out of business, and then good luck finding that Character Archaic or ST1 without Ebay as a venue.  I hope they tell Tiffany to shove their expensive sparkly crap up their asses.

Mike B.

 WWW  


Prolific Collector

Posts: 671
Joined: Dec 17, 2005
Last Visit: Feb 13, 2019
Location: Italy

Post Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 5:42 pm 
 

Uhm, just to contradict and agree with Mike at the same time, I'd say that Tiffany jewels are quite poor in quality, and as a consequence quite cheap in price. In jewelry terms, of course, where "cheap" has a totally subjective meaning.

 ICQ  
Next
Post new topic Reply to topic Page 1 of 31, 2, 3