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Post Posted: Fri Apr 14, 2006 7:23 am 
 

The original premise has a logical hole in it, big enough to drive a bus through.  Human Rights are completely socially constructed - we choose to give them to people, or rather, most states have agreed to a series of sets of human rights for their citizens.  If you are fortunate to live in a state which does have a strong set of rights, constitutionally protected, then you all get them -- but you can't claim them because you are close by in genetic terms -- or in fact geographically -- someone living in Poland has a different set of rights (i.e. living in an EU member state and thus covered by the European Convention on Human Rights) than someone living perhaps only 100 yards over the border in Belarus (i.e. bizarre cold war hangover state ruled by a despot).

Some Human Rights are taken to apply internationally -- e.g. prohibition against slavery, or the right not to be tortured.  But even then, there are differences, e.g. the US has a different definition of what ‘torture' means when it comes to questioning captives.  And of course, rights are also often abused/ignored by people and governments, so your right in law may not translate into reality. Rights come into conflict all the time, e.g. the right of free expression versus the right to a fair trial -- which is why most countries have restrictions on court reporting (or in the case of abortion).  

Someone posted in the other thread about extending rights to people in other countries first -- and I agree -- there are still plenty of places where people lack even the most basic rights, e.g. Burma, North Korea, Zimbabwe first.  Monkeys (and also dolphins and whales) can wait…

:)


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Post Posted: Fri Apr 14, 2006 9:15 am 
 

Aren't human rights, politics and ideologies, luxuries that come with living in a wealthy country? We should not have the right to inflict our perception of how the world should work on others. Especially seeing as we are supremely arrogant enough as a society to believe that we are the best and everyone wants to be like us.


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Post Posted: Fri Apr 14, 2006 12:05 pm 
 

Lawful Good to a tee.


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Post Posted: Fri Apr 14, 2006 12:20 pm 
 

I wholeheartedly support animal rights for any species, or subset of a species, that clearly communicates its intent to respect human rights (or rather MY rights, screw the rest of humanity).

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Post Posted: Fri Apr 14, 2006 12:44 pm 
 

Please forgive me for drifting slightly "on-topic" in this thread...

Imagine just how much more complicated real-world "human rights" would be with multiple sentient humanoid species.  Monkeys are one thing, but what about orcs, elves, dwarves, gnomes, etc...

Orcs/goblins/gnolls/kobolds would undoubtedly be branded "evil-doers" and great wars would be fought.  They'd be tortured and killed without mercy.  There'd be lots of ethnic cleansing to go around on both sides.

Dwarves, halflings and gnomes would make excellent slave labor.  (The dwarves wouldn't even complain about being sent to the mines!)

I think the elves would eventually rise up and kick us and our scrawny chimpanzee-sharing DNA back into the stone age -- and there'd be much rejoicing.  But if they failed, they'd probably end up in the sex trade.

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Post Posted: Fri Apr 14, 2006 2:22 pm 
 

deimos3428 wrote:I think the elves would eventually rise up and kick us and our scrawny chimpanzee-sharing DNA back into the stone age -- and there'd be much rejoicing.  But if they failed, they'd probably end up in the sex trade.


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Post Posted: Fri Apr 14, 2006 5:29 pm 
 

Actually....

   If the elves were gonna wipe out humans they had better do it as soon as humans show up.

   Our birth rate and dynamic personalities would swamp them in a few generations.  Then we'd use them in the sex trade.

Mark   8)


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Post Posted: Fri Apr 14, 2006 5:36 pm 
 

red_bus wrote:The original premise has a logical hole in it, big enough to drive a bus through.  Human Rights are completely socially constructed - we choose to give them to people, or rather, most states have agreed to a series of sets of human rights for their citizens.  If you are fortunate to live in a state which does have a strong set of rights, constitutionally protected, then you all get them -- but you can't claim them because you are close by in genetic terms -- or in fact geographically -- someone living in Poland has a different set of rights (i.e. living in an EU member state and thus covered by the European Convention on Human Rights) than someone living perhaps only 100 yards over the border in Belarus (i.e. bizarre cold war hangover state ruled by a despot).

Some Human Rights are taken to apply internationally -- e.g. prohibition against slavery, or the right not to be tortured.  But even then, there are differences, e.g. the US has a different definition of what ‘torture' means when it comes to questioning captives.  And of course, rights are also often abused/ignored by people and governments, so your right in law may not translate into reality. Rights come into conflict all the time, e.g. the right of free expression versus the right to a fair trial -- which is why most countries have restrictions on court reporting (or in the case of abortion).  

Someone posted in the other thread about extending rights to people in other countries first -- and I agree -- there are still plenty of places where people lack even the most basic rights, e.g. Burma, North Korea, Zimbabwe first.  Monkeys (and also dolphins and whales) can wait…

:)


   Actually....

    Under British law, you subjects have rights because the queen grants them.  Technically speaking.

    And, to be totally accurate (and technical), under American law human rights come from God.  Seriously.

   Consider the words of the first document of American law:

   "We hold these truths to be self evident, that all men were created equal and endowed by their creator with certain inaliable rights."

   Thus, under American law, human rights: 1) apply to all humans, 2) derive from God and 3) exist no matter who says so.

   Therefore, the only question under American law would be whether or not non-humans are in fact human.  The monkeys better get a lawyer.

Mark   8)

PS:  Did I spell "inaliable" right?


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Post Posted: Fri Apr 14, 2006 6:45 pm 
 

Inalienable rights. I think that means if you aren't a citizen you don't count. Or would that be Alienable rights?
If American rights come from God, then shouldn't it be true that anyone who does not believe in God (as viewed by the country's founders) HAS no rights?
Yeah, it would have to be Elvish hookers. Somehow the vision of a bearded female dwarf sidling up and saying "Me luff yoo looong time" just does not cut the mustard.
I do have an ex-girlfriend that had disturbingly half-orcish traits, but I'm fairly sure she was human. Maybe she only had 99% of human DNA.


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Post Posted: Fri Apr 14, 2006 7:02 pm 
 

MShipley88 wrote:    Therefore, the only question under American law would be whether or not non-humans are in fact human.  The monkeys better get a lawyer.


I wouldn't disagree with the idea that if you can show that a non-human is a human (?) then you might chose to grant them rights.  But that's not my point.  I was saying that human rights are an all or nothing thing, i.e. you don't get 95% (or any) of them by being 95% close genetically, or by being really near a country that grants its citizens rights.  I was also saying that commonly different groups of people get different rights.

As to lawyers, i'm with Shakespeare.  :wink:


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Post Posted: Fri Apr 14, 2006 7:39 pm 
 

Deadlord39 wrote:If American rights come from God, then shouldn't it be true that anyone who does not believe in God (as viewed by the country's founders) HAS no rights?


  No, Frank.  You would only lose your rights if God stopped believing in you.

   And, actually, we do recognize the civil rights of aliens in America.  We even let them parade around in the streets, carrying the flags of their country, and screaming about how unfair we all are.

Mark   8)


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Post Posted: Fri Apr 14, 2006 9:16 pm 
 

MShipley88 wrote:And, actually, we do recognize the civil rights of aliens in America.  We even let them parade around in the streets, carrying the flags of their country, and screaming about how unfair we all are.

Mark   8)


The funny thing about that whole situation is when the press was interviewing protestors down here in Dallas they were asking the question "What is it you are protesting?".   Over half of the people asked didnt even know.  They were just there because it gave them an excuse to skip school or work.  A lot of them were either drinking or already drunk and causing so many problems that the event organizers got on the news asking people not to show up if they were going to be there for the wrong reasons.

On a different note.  I just had a pint of St. Peter's Old Style Porter.  Made by you wonderful people across the pond in England...Suffolk to be more specific.  And I thought Germans made the best beer in the world.  I guess if the "aliens" ever decide to take back Texas I can always move to England...at least that way there will always be great beer available.  I dont think I could stand having to drink Corona the rest of my life.  :P

  

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Post Posted: Fri Apr 14, 2006 10:43 pm 
 

What!? My blood was 30-40% Corona during the whole time I was stationed in the Mojave. It's quite possible I would have died without it. Although, Dos Equis was pretty good too. But I would have to agree, the English work malt like no others.


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Post Posted: Fri Apr 14, 2006 11:10 pm 
 

Come to think of it...I don't know what they were parading for/against either.   :?   Seriously, what was that all about?

About the beer:

  We Northwesterners don't usually like the rest of the country to know this, but we enjoy not only the nation's finest weather, clean beaches, Microsoft, Amazon, Boeing and Wizards of the Coast...we also have the nation's best microbrews and the nation's best coffee.   :lol:   (Of course, after drinking all that coffee we probably need the most beer.)

  Even our Latin American protesters (against what?) were polite and happy...although this is also Washington, so the march took place downtown, during rush hour.   :?

Mark   8)


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Post Posted: Sat Apr 15, 2006 1:41 am 
 

MShipley88 wrote:Come to think of it...I don't know what they were parading for/against either.   :?   Seriously, what was that all about?

About the beer:

  We Northwesterners don't usually like the rest of the country to know this, but we enjoy not only the nation's finest weather, clean beaches, Microsoft, Amazon, Boeing and Wizards of the Coast...we also have the nation's best microbrews and the nation's best coffee.   :lol:   (Of course, after drinking all that coffee we probably need the most beer.)

  Even our Latin American protesters (against what?) were polite and happy...although this is also Washington, so the march took place downtown, during rush hour.   :?

Mark   8)


You crazy North westerners....I plan to retire to a beach where I can actually wear a bathing suit and not a raincoat!  But then again I hate rain, so a NW life will never be for me.  And the thought of maybe NOT finding an authentic Tex Mex restaurant within a 15 min drive gives me the shakes and wake me up at night with a cold sweat....

Mike B.

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Post Posted: Sat Apr 15, 2006 9:19 am 
 

We just had the Government do the 2-step all over our Industrial Relation laws, so there's bound to be plenty of parades/rallies/strikes happening down here in the near future as the unions scramble to retain any control they have.

I still think there's nothing better than ripping the top off a Blonde  8O (and yes I AM referring to a beer brewed down here!) :lol:  8)

  

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Post Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2006 7:48 am 
 

wow! this has gone even more off-topic than the off-topic already was :)

well folks, this is my first post in over a week or so. am back now and not in great shape.

basically without going into too much detail (as i dont really feel like talking about it right now), i picked up a groin strain in the 1st 10km on day 1. i was climbing up a steep hill (loose rocks), foot slipped and voila. very painful and i knew that was it almost right away. not being one to give in so easily tho, i did the remining 18km to finish day 1 - in a LOT of pain.

i rested overnight, tho i did consider stopping then, but started day 2. i got to the 1st checkpoint ok (short walking strides) and just after there, was some sand-dunes, where my foot slipped again, and i did the same thing again. this time it REALLY did hurt and i could barely walk then - the pain was so intense. even still, i managed about another 10km from there and was in visible distance of checkpoint 2, where i sadly had to stop. if i had tried to go any further, the chance of permanent damage was becoming a bigger possibility and under the circumstances, i felt i had justified myself more than enough.

it wasnt the ending i wanted, but i only stopped due to matters beyond my control.

am absolutely gutted, but i guess thats the way it goes eh? anyway, i am going to do it again.

so there we go.

prb for the wrong reasons, but the group of us had the most amazing adventure getting back from there to the UK. you really wouldnt believe me if i told you - it was that surreal, you could prb make a module out of it!

thats all for now,

Al



  

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Post Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:01 am 
 

Heya! :) Good to know you made it back in one piece, Al (and get the thread properly back OT ;)).

Yeah, I'd spotted the results, but they were lagged on the website and didn't want to forward without knowing what had happened.
Strained groin... darn... :(

Hoping for better climatic conditions in 2008, then?

  
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