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Post Posted: Mon Apr 10, 2006 11:50 pm 
 

faro wrote:After day 1, Al's in 616th place out of 676 "survivors"...


   Yes, but he's whipping that guy from Argentina's ass!

   Go Al!  Stay ahead of that South American bastard!

Mark   :lol:

PS:  I sent him a note on that link you gave us.  Lord, even if he comes in 676th that puts him ahead of roughly 3 billion other people who did not even dare to enter.

Mark  :roll:


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Post Posted: Thu Apr 13, 2006 10:12 pm 
 

Hey:

   I wanted to take the English monkey DNA discussion from the Mazes and Monsters thread over to this one:

   So...a money has DNA that is 95% human?  OK.  This proves that some people in England (who want to give "rights" to monkeys) are particularly bad at DNA math.....

  Ever seen a DNA lecture about how minor DNA changes can result in much different creatures?

   Ever considered that the human DNA code is, like, 100 million combinations long?

   Ever considered that 5% of 100 million is 5 million?

   Ergo, there are at least 5 million genetic differences between humans and monkeys...just sticking to the figures cited.

   Do the math:   :?   5 million differences...multiplied by the square root of flawed logic...divided by the inverse of common sense... :? ....carry the 2....and...you...get........hmmm....zero.  

   Genetically speaking, Monkeys and humans are about as closely related as humans and pigs, humans and aardvarks, humans and burritos...humans and chili dogs...etc.

   The word you are looking for is:  Carbon based life forms.

Mark   8)


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Post Posted: Thu Apr 13, 2006 10:27 pm 
 

MShipley88 wrote:    Genetically speaking, Monkeys and humans are about as closely related as humans and pigs, humans and aardvarks, humans and burritos...humans and chili dogs...etc.


Mmmmmmmm...... Burritos....

Does that make me a cannibal?


Well THAT went over like a turd in a punchbowl!

  

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Post Posted: Thu Apr 13, 2006 10:49 pm 
 

Some people think I'm closer to a gorilla than a human. I think it's the back hair.
Realistically, a few alterations in DNA could produce a radically different organism. It really depends WHICH sequences out of the 95% are the same. One minute change and you have a human being with purple fur and a flipper growing out of his back.
Evolutionism pretty much mandates that all life came from the same jelly puddle, so one could argue that leprosy bacilli should have the same basic rights as we do, since we come from the same basic ancestor. I intended to bring this up at the next WHO meeting, but attendance for the leprosy portion has fallen off in recent years.
So to compare the Joe=monkey debate with something equally difficult to pinpoint, how about abortion? Is a newly fertilized, haven't-split-in-two but will soon egg a human? Does it become one at, say, 1,000,000 cells? 4 months? Why not at 3 months 29 days (unless it is a leap month)? Is it when the fetus would be able to survive outside the womb on its own? If so, isn't it fully dependent on others to care for it, and therefore unable to survive on its own? Why is it a murderer can be charged with 2 homicides for killing a woman whi is 2 months pregnant, but that same woman can have her own baby coathangered at a clinic and not go to jail?
The point is this: Both these topics are as unsolvable as the chicken and the egg debate. It is impossible to pin down exact details. No matter how many people think a certain way, there will always be some who don't, and neither can prove their opinion is the right one.


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Post Posted: Thu Apr 13, 2006 10:52 pm 
 

BTW, we should all chip in and get Al an ST1 for a surprise gift. Nah, wait, those are pretty chancy lately. Maybe a B2. No one would ?monkey? with one of those.


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Post Posted: Thu Apr 13, 2006 11:45 pm 
 

The whole "we're 95% genetically similar to monkeys" argument is very misleading for a couple of reasons.

The link to the study below puts these numbers into proper context.
http://www.uchicago.edu/aff/mwc-amacad/biocomplexity/conference_papers/goodman.pdf

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Post Posted: Fri Apr 14, 2006 7:23 am 
 

The original premise has a logical hole in it, big enough to drive a bus through.  Human Rights are completely socially constructed - we choose to give them to people, or rather, most states have agreed to a series of sets of human rights for their citizens.  If you are fortunate to live in a state which does have a strong set of rights, constitutionally protected, then you all get them -- but you can't claim them because you are close by in genetic terms -- or in fact geographically -- someone living in Poland has a different set of rights (i.e. living in an EU member state and thus covered by the European Convention on Human Rights) than someone living perhaps only 100 yards over the border in Belarus (i.e. bizarre cold war hangover state ruled by a despot).

Some Human Rights are taken to apply internationally -- e.g. prohibition against slavery, or the right not to be tortured.  But even then, there are differences, e.g. the US has a different definition of what ‘torture' means when it comes to questioning captives.  And of course, rights are also often abused/ignored by people and governments, so your right in law may not translate into reality. Rights come into conflict all the time, e.g. the right of free expression versus the right to a fair trial -- which is why most countries have restrictions on court reporting (or in the case of abortion).  

Someone posted in the other thread about extending rights to people in other countries first -- and I agree -- there are still plenty of places where people lack even the most basic rights, e.g. Burma, North Korea, Zimbabwe first.  Monkeys (and also dolphins and whales) can wait…

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Post Posted: Fri Apr 14, 2006 9:15 am 
 

Aren't human rights, politics and ideologies, luxuries that come with living in a wealthy country? We should not have the right to inflict our perception of how the world should work on others. Especially seeing as we are supremely arrogant enough as a society to believe that we are the best and everyone wants to be like us.


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Post Posted: Fri Apr 14, 2006 12:05 pm 
 

Lawful Good to a tee.


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Post Posted: Fri Apr 14, 2006 12:20 pm 
 

I wholeheartedly support animal rights for any species, or subset of a species, that clearly communicates its intent to respect human rights (or rather MY rights, screw the rest of humanity).

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Post Posted: Fri Apr 14, 2006 12:44 pm 
 

Please forgive me for drifting slightly "on-topic" in this thread...

Imagine just how much more complicated real-world "human rights" would be with multiple sentient humanoid species.  Monkeys are one thing, but what about orcs, elves, dwarves, gnomes, etc...

Orcs/goblins/gnolls/kobolds would undoubtedly be branded "evil-doers" and great wars would be fought.  They'd be tortured and killed without mercy.  There'd be lots of ethnic cleansing to go around on both sides.

Dwarves, halflings and gnomes would make excellent slave labor.  (The dwarves wouldn't even complain about being sent to the mines!)

I think the elves would eventually rise up and kick us and our scrawny chimpanzee-sharing DNA back into the stone age -- and there'd be much rejoicing.  But if they failed, they'd probably end up in the sex trade.

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Post Posted: Fri Apr 14, 2006 2:22 pm 
 

deimos3428 wrote:I think the elves would eventually rise up and kick us and our scrawny chimpanzee-sharing DNA back into the stone age -- and there'd be much rejoicing.  But if they failed, they'd probably end up in the sex trade.


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Post Posted: Fri Apr 14, 2006 5:29 pm 
 

Actually....

   If the elves were gonna wipe out humans they had better do it as soon as humans show up.

   Our birth rate and dynamic personalities would swamp them in a few generations.  Then we'd use them in the sex trade.

Mark   8)


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Post Posted: Fri Apr 14, 2006 5:36 pm 
 

red_bus wrote:The original premise has a logical hole in it, big enough to drive a bus through.  Human Rights are completely socially constructed - we choose to give them to people, or rather, most states have agreed to a series of sets of human rights for their citizens.  If you are fortunate to live in a state which does have a strong set of rights, constitutionally protected, then you all get them -- but you can't claim them because you are close by in genetic terms -- or in fact geographically -- someone living in Poland has a different set of rights (i.e. living in an EU member state and thus covered by the European Convention on Human Rights) than someone living perhaps only 100 yards over the border in Belarus (i.e. bizarre cold war hangover state ruled by a despot).

Some Human Rights are taken to apply internationally -- e.g. prohibition against slavery, or the right not to be tortured.  But even then, there are differences, e.g. the US has a different definition of what ‘torture' means when it comes to questioning captives.  And of course, rights are also often abused/ignored by people and governments, so your right in law may not translate into reality. Rights come into conflict all the time, e.g. the right of free expression versus the right to a fair trial -- which is why most countries have restrictions on court reporting (or in the case of abortion).  

Someone posted in the other thread about extending rights to people in other countries first -- and I agree -- there are still plenty of places where people lack even the most basic rights, e.g. Burma, North Korea, Zimbabwe first.  Monkeys (and also dolphins and whales) can wait…

:)


   Actually....

    Under British law, you subjects have rights because the queen grants them.  Technically speaking.

    And, to be totally accurate (and technical), under American law human rights come from God.  Seriously.

   Consider the words of the first document of American law:

   "We hold these truths to be self evident, that all men were created equal and endowed by their creator with certain inaliable rights."

   Thus, under American law, human rights: 1) apply to all humans, 2) derive from God and 3) exist no matter who says so.

   Therefore, the only question under American law would be whether or not non-humans are in fact human.  The monkeys better get a lawyer.

Mark   8)

PS:  Did I spell "inaliable" right?


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Post Posted: Fri Apr 14, 2006 6:45 pm 
 

Inalienable rights. I think that means if you aren't a citizen you don't count. Or would that be Alienable rights?
If American rights come from God, then shouldn't it be true that anyone who does not believe in God (as viewed by the country's founders) HAS no rights?
Yeah, it would have to be Elvish hookers. Somehow the vision of a bearded female dwarf sidling up and saying "Me luff yoo looong time" just does not cut the mustard.
I do have an ex-girlfriend that had disturbingly half-orcish traits, but I'm fairly sure she was human. Maybe she only had 99% of human DNA.


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Post Posted: Fri Apr 14, 2006 7:02 pm 
 

MShipley88 wrote:    Therefore, the only question under American law would be whether or not non-humans are in fact human.  The monkeys better get a lawyer.


I wouldn't disagree with the idea that if you can show that a non-human is a human (?) then you might chose to grant them rights.  But that's not my point.  I was saying that human rights are an all or nothing thing, i.e. you don't get 95% (or any) of them by being 95% close genetically, or by being really near a country that grants its citizens rights.  I was also saying that commonly different groups of people get different rights.

As to lawyers, i'm with Shakespeare.  :wink:


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Post Posted: Fri Apr 14, 2006 7:39 pm 
 

Deadlord39 wrote:If American rights come from God, then shouldn't it be true that anyone who does not believe in God (as viewed by the country's founders) HAS no rights?


  No, Frank.  You would only lose your rights if God stopped believing in you.

   And, actually, we do recognize the civil rights of aliens in America.  We even let them parade around in the streets, carrying the flags of their country, and screaming about how unfair we all are.

Mark   8)


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Post Posted: Fri Apr 14, 2006 9:16 pm 
 

MShipley88 wrote:And, actually, we do recognize the civil rights of aliens in America.  We even let them parade around in the streets, carrying the flags of their country, and screaming about how unfair we all are.

Mark   8)


The funny thing about that whole situation is when the press was interviewing protestors down here in Dallas they were asking the question "What is it you are protesting?".   Over half of the people asked didnt even know.  They were just there because it gave them an excuse to skip school or work.  A lot of them were either drinking or already drunk and causing so many problems that the event organizers got on the news asking people not to show up if they were going to be there for the wrong reasons.

On a different note.  I just had a pint of St. Peter's Old Style Porter.  Made by you wonderful people across the pond in England...Suffolk to be more specific.  And I thought Germans made the best beer in the world.  I guess if the "aliens" ever decide to take back Texas I can always move to England...at least that way there will always be great beer available.  I dont think I could stand having to drink Corona the rest of my life.  :P

  
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