chromaticknight wrote:

My 4th print with white flyleaf matches all the points above.

Seems like the 4th print entry needs split into
    4th print ( red flyleaf )                 and
    4th plus print ( white flyleaf )
errr something like that. Unless, of course, someone comes up with a 4th white that doesnt match the points above. Then we have more fun to look into.



Mike

Oh, I sincerely hope so. Good work all round for digging into areas that don't necessarily have high $ attached, thanks, and never quite know what else there might be to follow.
Still other goodies to find in those ol' hardbacks, I'm sure (e.g. that 3rd+ PHB).

Still ca'n't help with this one but will keep my eyes open "just in case".

My red 4th matches the 1" stitch.

My white 4th in a bit inconsistent. It appears to be 7/8" for most, but fluctuates on either side for some. It may not be the best example.

The binding on the 5th is too tight to tell.

I tend to agree that, should the white 4ths continue in this trend, they are really the first 5ths. TSR simply had discontinued enough items they did not want to promote, and added many more they did (like modules), so they made the change and the present 5ths were the result.

Makes sense to me, but who knows, eh?  

I'm not entirely certain that binding distance would work. A company as big as Random House would likely have several binding machines, probably of different makes/models (they wouldn't all be purchased at once), so it could be that different print runs would be bound on different binders.

deimos3428 wrote:It may well be further evidence that the 1st DMG predates August 1979, something we were talking about long long ago in a thread far far away.

Well, they'd certainly have needed a good number of DMGs for release at GenCon and that was barely mid-month in '79.

chromaticknight wrote:My 5th print PHB has 1" spacing on the stitching.

Thanks again.  I love it when a plan comes together.

Ok, here are the two variations:

The first photo of the covers with the 4th Red that matches yours behind and the different 4th Red in front



Another photo of the covers with 4th Red with the one that matches yours on top



Title Pages, note the stitching looks different



Fly Leaf pages, note the stitching looks different



Hydra pages



Product Listing pages



Spines
[/img]

deimos3428 wrote:This is going to take more head-banging that I can afford at the moment

   

Let me know if you need any other photos or anything

MetamorphosisSigma wrote:Let me preface what I'm about to post by acknowledging that I'm coming to this discussion late, so please let me know if I'm covering old ground or if I am misunderstanding the issues involved..

One of my Monster Manuals appears to be a red 4th, per this description:

1.  (as TheMilford asked) It does NOT have the yellow and red sewn binding as the other "4th Red"
2. States "Distributed to the book trade in the United States by Random House..." on the title page, as in your "4th White"
3. Hydra illustration is raised, as in your "4th White"
4. There are no prices shown and the spacing looks exactly the same between "Star Probe" and "Star Empires" as in your "4th White"
EDIT:
5. Also, there's an ISBN on the bottom of the title page


HOWEVER, I measured the distance between stitches and found that it is 5/8", not 1" as someone stated it should be, above. I'm not sure if this is noteworthy or not, but figured I might as well chime in. I can provide pictures if needed.

Ok, let's back up.  That is not an accurate description of the 4th.

I will be amending this post in a few minutes, please bear with me as I dig through the collection one more time...

...ok, and we're back.  Some points of order:

• Unless I've missed somethere there are no MM 4th printings whatsoever that have the red and yellow spine inlay.  (The 3rd+ printing does, as do all previous printings.)  NB:  To be a "4th", you must state 4th on the copyright page.  I strongly suspect those copies that claim to be 4ths with inlays are actually 3rd+, on further investigation.
  
• misterspock has discovered something previously unknown, at least to me.  There are in fact two different 4th reds (at least).  So we'll have to drop the "plus/minus" designation at this point and go into lettering.  I'm putting them into order based on what makes sense to me, and only noting distinguishing features.

3rd Plus (Red):  Has right-justified prices on page 112, like all previous printings.  Also states "send $2.00 for our catalog" in the last paragraph.  Only mentioning for reference; it is definitely not a 4th as it states "3rd Edition" on the copyright page.  This is misterspock's upper book.  I have one too.

4th Alpha (Red): Does not have right-justified prices on page 112, but does have "(booklet only $4.00)" after STAR PROBE description, and "(booklet only $5.50)" after STAR EMPIRES description.  Also states "send for our catalog." in the last paragraph.  I am assuming it came first because it still has some prices.  I have one of these.  

4th Beta (Red)*:  Does not have any prices on page 112, but is still the old catalog page.  This is misterspock's lower book.  Hydra is smaller/raised.  Has "Distributed to the book trade in the United States by Random House...".  Cover is like 5ths, with Random House super-saturation, but no "TM".  I believe this is the legendary "Red Flyleaf 5th".

4th Gamma (White)*: Other than the flyleaf, identical to the 4th Beta.  Hydra is smaller/raised.  Has "Distributed to the book trade in the United States by Random House...".  Cover is like 5ths, with Random House super-saturation, but no "TM".  This is simperingtoad's book.

*5th (White):  For reference.  Has "TM" on it.  Also has overhauled catalog page.

* Again, it's very much in question whether these are 4ths or 5ths at this point.  I am leaning towards 5ths as the evidence is pouring in that direction, with the current 5th quickly being made into the odd-man-out.

MetamorphosisSigma wrote:Okay, bearing with... Have the MM handy.

EDIT: Okay, so far I'm a 4th Beta, except that I measure the stiches at 5/8" apart, which contradicts this:

MMs:
1st - 5/8"
2nd - 3/8"
3rd/3rd plus - 5/8"
4th (red) - 1"
4th (white) - 1"
5th - 1 1/4"
6th - ??
7th - glued

Yes, I noticed that.  I have no explanation at this time, except that it's quite possible the beta precedes the Alpha.  The "4th red" on that list is the one I'm now calling Alpha.  If you're interested in discussing/comparing in realtime, go to http://deimos3428.acaeum.com/chat

The above is incorrect.  It cannot precede the 4th Alpha, as the 4th Alpha is pre-RH.