MM - 4th printing found with red end papers (news to grodog)
Post new topic Reply to topic Page 5 of 812, 3, 4, 5, 678
Author


Prolific Collector

Posts: 720
Joined: Aug 28, 2007
Last Visit: Feb 01, 2017
Location: Brooklyn

Post Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 10:10 pm 
 

Geez, I wish people would take my B/X thread this seriously...



:tongue:


“Remember that generosity can be contagious…”  - Dave Sutherland III

eBay ID: themilford
Hidden Ebay ID: t***o

 WWW  

User avatar

Long-Winded Collector

Posts: 3155
Joined: Nov 21, 2005
Last Visit: Feb 05, 2016
Location: UK

Post Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 10:47 pm 
 

chromaticknight wrote:

My 4th print with white flyleaf matches all the points above.

Seems like the 4th print entry needs split into
    4th print ( red flyleaf )                 and
    4th plus print ( white flyleaf )
errr something like that. Unless, of course, someone comes up with a 4th white that doesnt match the points above. Then we have more fun to look into.



Mike

Oh, I sincerely hope so. Good work all round for digging into areas that don't necessarily have high $ attached, thanks, and never quite know what else there might be to follow.
Still other goodies to find in those ol' hardbacks, I'm sure (e.g. that 3rd+ PHB).

Still ca'n't help with this one but will keep my eyes open "just in case". :)


"7.3 ORGANIZING THE PARTY: Always have a keg, even if it's BYOB...
7.4 TAKING THE GAME SERIOUSLY: Don't"

  


Long-Winded Collector
Acaeum Donor

Posts: 3066
Joined: Jul 09, 2004
Last Visit: Apr 30, 2015

Post Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 10:58 pm 
 

TheMilford wrote:Geez, I wish people would take my B/X thread this seriously...
Heh...I'll get to that one eventually.  I have quite a few threads I need to update and almost zero time.  I'm not an "expert" by any means -- but this just the sort of bizarre thing I find fun.  :D

Chromaticknight, thanks again.  I knew you'd have a copy of pretty much anything.  :D

Still, how do we determine whether something belongs with the 4ths or the 5ths?  I am most comfortable with the boundary condition being before/after Random House.  making this formerly 4th whiteflyleaf into a 5th minus rather than a 4th plus.

However, the stitching can tell us a lot.  It can help us categorize an unknown printing -- because it keeps changing.  I think it would solidify on which side of the fence the "4th white" really belongs.

If you accept the premise that these changes occurred more or less simultaneously across all three books, you can also potentially get some useful dating information.  

For example, I think it's a safe bet that the 5th MM, 7th PHB and 8th DMG were contemporaries.  Here are the ones I know.

MMs:
1st - 5/8"
2nd - 3/8"
3rd/3rd plus - 5/8"
4th Alpha (red) - 1"
4th Beta (red) - 5/8"
4th Gamma (white) - 1"
5th - 1 1/4"
6th - ??
7th - glued

DMGs:
1st - 5/8"
2nd - 1", but stitches removed/stapled in beta
3rd - ??
4th - 1"
5th - 1"
6th - ??
7th - 1"
8th - 1 1/4"
9th plus - glued

PHBs
T1st - alternates between 3/8" and 1 1/4"
1st - 5/8"
2nd - 5/8"
3rd - 5/8"
4th - 5/8"
5th - 1" (thanks to chromaticknight)
6th - ??
7th - 1 1/4"
8th - ??
9th - glued


Last edited by deimos3428 on Thu Oct 08, 2009 10:36 pm, edited 4 times in total.
 YIM  

User avatar

Verbose Collector

Posts: 1381
Joined: Nov 03, 2008
Last Visit: Jul 01, 2020
Location: My Pad

Post Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 11:38 pm 
 

My red 4th matches the 1" stitch.

My white 4th in a bit inconsistent. It appears to be 7/8" for most, but fluctuates on either side for some. It may not be the best example.

The binding on the 5th is too tight to tell.

I tend to agree that, should the white 4ths continue in this trend, they are really the first 5ths. TSR simply had discontinued enough items they did not want to promote, and added many more they did (like modules), so they made the change and the present 5ths were the result.

Makes sense to me, but who knows, eh?  :wink:

  


Long-Winded Collector
Acaeum Donor

Posts: 3066
Joined: Jul 09, 2004
Last Visit: Apr 30, 2015

Post Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 11:42 pm 
 

SimperingToad wrote:My red 4th matches the 1" stitch.

My white 4th in a bit inconsistent. It appears to be 7/8" for most, but fluctuates on either side for some. It may not be the best example.

Yeah, some rounding is in order, but there's a definite and immediately noticeable difference between 5/8", 1", and 1 1/4" as I've grouped them.

A bit disappointed that the 4th white is 1", as that means once again I need to re-evaluate my position.  A 5th would have 1 1/4", not 1".

So it's a 4th plus, it undoubtedly comes after the 4th red due to the pricing changes, and unfortunately for neat printing division enthusiasts everywhere, it is the onset of the Random House MM printings.

 YIM  

User avatar

Verbose Collector

Posts: 1381
Joined: Nov 03, 2008
Last Visit: Jul 01, 2020
Location: My Pad

Post Posted: Thu Aug 13, 2009 1:47 am 
 

I'm not entirely certain that binding distance would work. A company as big as Random House would likely have several binding machines, probably of different makes/models (they wouldn't all be purchased at once), so it could be that different print runs would be bound on different binders.

  


Long-Winded Collector
Acaeum Donor

Posts: 3066
Joined: Jul 09, 2004
Last Visit: Apr 30, 2015

Post Posted: Thu Aug 13, 2009 9:49 am 
 

SimperingToad wrote:I'm not entirely certain that binding distance would work. A company as big as Random House would likely have several binding machines, probably of different makes/models (they wouldn't all be purchased at once), so it could be that different print runs would be bound on different binders.

Fair point, but it does seem to work in this case, at least given the knowns we've filled in so far.

There are some early anomalies -- T1st PHB, 2nd MM, DMG 2nd.  Otherwise, the initial standard is 5/8" stitching across the board.

The move from 5/8" to 1" seems to be somewhere in August 1979, just after the 1st DMG.  (This should be further evidenced by a PHB 5th having 1" spacing, if anyone can confirm that hypothesis.)  It may well be further evidence that the 1st DMG predates August 1979, something we were talking about long long ago in a thread far far away.

[edit]Found it!  Note in discussing the timeline for the inlay, the implication is that the 1st DMG is printed closer to May 1979, not August.  (Though that's still the release date.)[/edit]

viewtopic.php?p=15103#15103

The move from 1" to 1 1/4" seems to be sometime in 1980, after January.  I haven't pinpointed it yet  

The move to gluing seems to correspond with the orange spines in 1983.  I don't think you'll find glued books before that, or stitched books after.  Fiend Folio and early Deities and Demigods should be stitched as well.

 YIM  

User avatar

Long-Winded Collector

Posts: 3155
Joined: Nov 21, 2005
Last Visit: Feb 05, 2016
Location: UK

Post Posted: Thu Aug 13, 2009 5:28 pm 
 

deimos3428 wrote:It may well be further evidence that the 1st DMG predates August 1979, something we were talking about long long ago in a thread far far away.

Well, they'd certainly have needed a good number of DMGs for release at GenCon and that was barely mid-month in '79.


"7.3 ORGANIZING THE PARTY: Always have a keg, even if it's BYOB...
7.4 TAKING THE GAME SERIOUSLY: Don't"

  

User avatar

Prolific Collector
Acaeum Donor

Posts: 629
Joined: Nov 05, 2002
Last Visit: Apr 22, 2021
Location: Ohio

Post Posted: Fri Aug 14, 2009 10:50 am 
 

deimos3428 wrote:
The move from 5/8" to 1" seems to be somewhere in August 1979, just after the 1st DMG.  (This should be further evidenced by a PHB 5th having 1" spacing, if anyone can confirm that hypothesis.)  It may well be further evidence that the 1st DMG predates August 1979, something we were talking about long long ago in a thread far far away.


My 5th print PHB has 1" spacing on the stitching.


Mike

  


Long-Winded Collector
Acaeum Donor

Posts: 3066
Joined: Jul 09, 2004
Last Visit: Apr 30, 2015

Post Posted: Fri Aug 14, 2009 11:27 am 
 

chromaticknight wrote:My 5th print PHB has 1" spacing on the stitching.

Thanks again.  I love it when a plan comes together.

 YIM  

User avatar

Sage Collector
Acaeum Donor

Posts: 2655
Joined: Sep 25, 2007
Last Visit: Oct 05, 2020
Location: Southwest

Post Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 12:26 am 
 

Sorry that I completely missed your post from a couple months ago with the labeled photos, but those are great differences to look for, thanks.

So I think I have that missing piece of the puzzle you're looking for, or maybe an additional piece to be puzzled by  :)

I'll have to take the photos tomorrow or something, but this is the deal:

I have two red-fly-leafed/wizard-logo'd/gold-banded MM's, one of which looks exactly like the "4th Red" one in your photo.

However, the second 4th Red one I have, is different in these ways:

1.  (as TheMilford asked) It does NOT have the yellow and red sewn binding as the other "4th Red"
2. States "Distributed to the book trade in the United States by Random House..." on the title page, as in your "4th White"
3. Hydra illustration is raised, as in your "4th White"
4. There are no prices shown and the spacing looks exactly the same between "Star Probe" and "Star Empires" as in your "4th White"
EDIT:
5. Also, there's an ISBN on the bottom of the title page
6. Another thing is that the texture of the cover for the 4th Red without the ISBN seems different than the other. However, there's obvious wear to the ISBN 4th Red, so take that for whatever it's worth.

Photos in the next post...


Last edited by misterspock on Wed Oct 07, 2009 11:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
  

User avatar

Sage Collector
Acaeum Donor

Posts: 2655
Joined: Sep 25, 2007
Last Visit: Oct 05, 2020
Location: Southwest

Post Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 11:36 am 
 

Ok, here are the two variations:

The first photo of the covers with the 4th Red that matches yours behind and the different 4th Red in front
Image


Another photo of the covers with 4th Red with the one that matches yours on top
Image


Title Pages, note the stitching looks different
Image


Fly Leaf pages, note the stitching looks different
Image


Hydra pages
Image


Product Listing pages
Image


Spines
Image[/img]

  


Long-Winded Collector
Acaeum Donor

Posts: 3066
Joined: Jul 09, 2004
Last Visit: Apr 30, 2015

Post Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 11:49 am 
 

This is going to take more head-banging that I can afford at the moment, but at first glance:

* the upper looks like a 3rd plus. Please confirm it states "4th" on the copyright page. (Nevermind, it's clearly stated as "3rd" on the copyright page) ;)

* the lower is definitely a RH cover, with heavier color saturation.

I'll dig into it more as time permits.

 YIM  

User avatar

Sage Collector
Acaeum Donor

Posts: 2655
Joined: Sep 25, 2007
Last Visit: Oct 05, 2020
Location: Southwest

Post Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 11:54 am 
 

deimos3428 wrote:This is going to take more head-banging that I can afford at the moment

:shaking2:  :compress:  :lol:

Let me know if you need any other photos or anything

  

User avatar

** Banned **

Posts: 1213
Joined: Aug 04, 2009
Last Visit: Nov 02, 2013

Post Posted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 7:44 pm 
 

Let me preface what I'm about to post by acknowledging that I'm coming to this discussion late, so please let me know if I'm covering old ground or if I am misunderstanding the issues involved..

One of my Monster Manuals appears to be a red 4th, per this description:

1.  (as TheMilford asked) It does NOT have the yellow and red sewn binding as the other "4th Red"
2. States "Distributed to the book trade in the United States by Random House..." on the title page, as in your "4th White"
3. Hydra illustration is raised, as in your "4th White"
4. There are no prices shown and the spacing looks exactly the same between "Star Probe" and "Star Empires" as in your "4th White"
EDIT:
5. Also, there's an ISBN on the bottom of the title page


HOWEVER, I measured the distance between stitches and found that it is 5/8", not 1" as someone stated it should be, above. I'm not sure if this is noteworthy or not, but figured I might as well chime in. I can provide pictures if needed.

  


Long-Winded Collector
Acaeum Donor

Posts: 3066
Joined: Jul 09, 2004
Last Visit: Apr 30, 2015

Post Posted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 9:25 pm 
 

MetamorphosisSigma wrote:Let me preface what I'm about to post by acknowledging that I'm coming to this discussion late, so please let me know if I'm covering old ground or if I am misunderstanding the issues involved..

One of my Monster Manuals appears to be a red 4th, per this description:

1.  (as TheMilford asked) It does NOT have the yellow and red sewn binding as the other "4th Red"
2. States "Distributed to the book trade in the United States by Random House..." on the title page, as in your "4th White"
3. Hydra illustration is raised, as in your "4th White"
4. There are no prices shown and the spacing looks exactly the same between "Star Probe" and "Star Empires" as in your "4th White"
EDIT:
5. Also, there's an ISBN on the bottom of the title page


HOWEVER, I measured the distance between stitches and found that it is 5/8", not 1" as someone stated it should be, above. I'm not sure if this is noteworthy or not, but figured I might as well chime in. I can provide pictures if needed.

Ok, let's back up.  That is not an accurate description of the 4th.

I will be amending this post in a few minutes, please bear with me as I dig through the collection one more time...

...ok, and we're back.  Some points of order:
  • Unless I've missed somethere there are no MM 4th printings whatsoever that have the red and yellow spine inlay.  (The 3rd+ printing does, as do all previous printings.)  NB:  To be a "4th", you must state 4th on the copyright page.  I strongly suspect those copies that claim to be 4ths with inlays are actually 3rd+, on further investigation.
  • misterspock has discovered something previously unknown, at least to me.  There are in fact two different 4th reds (at least).  So we'll have to drop the "plus/minus" designation at this point and go into lettering.  I'm putting them into order based on what makes sense to me, and only noting distinguishing features.

3rd Plus (Red):  Has right-justified prices on page 112, like all previous printings.  Also states "send $2.00 for our catalog" in the last paragraph.  Only mentioning for reference; it is definitely not a 4th as it states "3rd Edition" on the copyright page.  This is misterspock's upper book.  I have one too.

4th Alpha (Red): Does not have right-justified prices on page 112, but does have "(booklet only $4.00)" after STAR PROBE description, and "(booklet only $5.50)" after STAR EMPIRES description.  Also states "send for our catalog." in the last paragraph.  I am assuming it came first because it still has some prices.  I have one of these.  

4th Beta (Red)*:  Does not have any prices on page 112, but is still the old catalog page.  This is misterspock's lower book.  Hydra is smaller/raised.  Has "Distributed to the book trade in the United States by Random House...".  Cover is like 5ths, with Random House super-saturation, but no "TM".  I believe this is the legendary "Red Flyleaf 5th".

4th Gamma (White)*: Other than the flyleaf, identical to the 4th Beta.  Hydra is smaller/raised.  Has "Distributed to the book trade in the United States by Random House...".  Cover is like 5ths, with Random House super-saturation, but no "TM".  This is simperingtoad's book.

*5th (White):  For reference.  Has "TM" on it.  Also has overhauled catalog page.

* Again, it's very much in question whether these are 4ths or 5ths at this point.  I am leaning towards 5ths as the evidence is pouring in that direction, with the current 5th quickly being made into the odd-man-out.


Last edited by deimos3428 on Fri Oct 09, 2009 9:23 pm, edited 9 times in total.
 YIM  

User avatar

** Banned **

Posts: 1213
Joined: Aug 04, 2009
Last Visit: Nov 02, 2013

Post Posted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 9:38 pm 
 

Okay, bearing with... Have the MM handy.

EDIT: Okay, so far I'm a 4th Beta, except that I measure the stiches at 5/8" apart, which contradicts this:

MMs:
1st - 5/8"
2nd - 3/8"
3rd/3rd plus - 5/8"
4th (red) - 1"
4th (white) - 1"
5th - 1 1/4"
6th - ??
7th - glued


Another EDIT: Also, comparing my 4th Beta to my 5th printings (I have two), I'm noticing that the paper quality in the 4th Beta is MUCH better than the 5ths. It's heavier, smoother/slicker (not coarse) and much more supple. Not sure if this is significant.


Last edited by MetaSigma on Thu Oct 08, 2009 10:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
  


Long-Winded Collector
Acaeum Donor

Posts: 3066
Joined: Jul 09, 2004
Last Visit: Apr 30, 2015

Post Posted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 10:02 pm 
 

MetamorphosisSigma wrote:Okay, bearing with... Have the MM handy.

EDIT: Okay, so far I'm a 4th Beta, except that I measure the stiches at 5/8" apart, which contradicts this:

MMs:
1st - 5/8"
2nd - 3/8"
3rd/3rd plus - 5/8"
4th (red) - 1"
4th (white) - 1"
5th - 1 1/4"
6th - ??
7th - glued

Yes, I noticed that.  I have no explanation at this time, except that it's quite possible the beta precedes the Alpha.  The "4th red" on that list is the one I'm now calling Alpha.  If you're interested in discussing/comparing in realtime, go to http://deimos3428.acaeum.com/chat ;)

The above is incorrect.  It cannot precede the 4th Alpha, as the 4th Alpha is pre-RH.


Last edited by deimos3428 on Thu Oct 08, 2009 10:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 YIM  

User avatar

** Banned **

Posts: 1213
Joined: Aug 04, 2009
Last Visit: Nov 02, 2013

Post Posted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 10:08 pm 
 

OK, I'm there.

  


Long-Winded Collector
Acaeum Donor

Posts: 3066
Joined: Jul 09, 2004
Last Visit: Apr 30, 2015

Post Posted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 10:35 pm 
 

We have confirmed the 4th Beta is 5/8" spacing, 17 stitches.  Very odd in my opinion, but I'll update the chart.  It also makes my earlier "stitching boundary" argument hold no water at all.  

In light of this evidence, I move that the 4th Beta/Gamma be listed as 5th Alpha/Beta, with the original 5th now a 5th Gamma.  I see no other reasonable solution.

 YIM  
PreviousNext
Post new topic Reply to topic Page 5 of 812, 3, 4, 5, 678