MM - 4th printing found with red end papers (news to grodog)
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Post Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:44 pm 
 

deimos3428 wrote:Ok, I see 'em now.  The only remaining question I have at this point is:  Are all "4th whites" like this, or is your copy another previously-unknown variant?


I've got at least one 4th white, can check in a bit.


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Post Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:45 pm 
 

Yep, that's what I see in my 3rd vs. the others. 3rd to 4th seems to be the break point.

Incidentally, I just Googled this info. I've been around the print industry for 20 years, though mostly design/pre-press (a low-level grunt), so my knowledge of post-press is limited.

"Case binding This is the method that one sees most often on hardcover books. Signatures are sewn together, glued to a gauze strip and then glued to end papers which are attached to the hard covers. It's quite a process!

Plastic comb binding Ideal for business reports and the like, this method uses plastic teeth that insert into a series of tiny holes made in a stack of pages. Comb binding machines are pretty inexpensive and the spines can be removed and reattached as needed."

It seems as though the 3rd and earlier are case bound, the yellow/red being the gauze strip, and the 4th and later are plastic comb bound?


Last edited by SimperingToad on Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
  


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Post Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:47 pm 
 

SimperingToad wrote:Plastic comb binding Ideal for business reports and the like, this method uses plastic teeth that insert into a series of tiny holes made in a stack of pages. Comb binding machines are pretty inexpensive and the spines can be removed and reattached as needed."


This is the same method as Chainmail and other similar books... not a hardbound method.


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Post Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:50 pm 
 

TheMilford wrote:
This is the same method as Chainmail and other similar books... not a hardbound method.
Oh, yeah. Now I got a mental pic. Oops! :oops: I blame the (possible) Asperger's.  :lol:

  


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Post Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 3:37 pm 
 

TheMilford wrote:PHBs
[ Image ]
7th top
3rd bottom.

The 7th has "stitching" but not the kind of heavy stitching I assume we are talking about here.

Do we need to make a more clear distinction?

I don't think any PHB's after the 3rd have the inlay.  I think the stitching/no stitching is sufficient (for now, anyway.)

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Post Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 8:11 pm 
 

deimos3428 wrote:*sigh*  There goes my plans for this evening. :D


lets have a look



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Post Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 8:14 pm 
 

It's all stitching. It's just a matter of cost methinks. I just took a look a copy of the 2E PHB and the RC, and they use the same type as the 3rd print MM/PHB (i.e. you can see the gauze). We may have hit the 'gone cheap' printing era with the red 4th print MM.

  

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Post Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 8:34 pm 
 

deimos3428 wrote:Bear with me, please.  We need to be very precise about this, as changes to the established printing order are things that need to be handled with care. ;)

I'm of the opinion that if it says "Random House", it's a 5th printing, period.  That's a considerable shift, that also corresponds with a change in the cover material.  That being said, there may indeed be more than one variant of the 5th printing.

To confirm, you're stating that your 4th print white-flyleaf has the following features, which the 5th does not:

* No TM on Yellow Banner
* No prices for Star Probe or Star Empires, but otherwise the product list resembles the pg. 111 of the 4th red-flyleaf, not the overhauled 5th-and-later list

Like the 5ths, it also has:
* Hydra is small
* Cover material is smooth (and has high color saturation?)
* Random House added on copyright page

If I've got that right, this is quite an interesting discovery, as it pretty much forces a change to the printing order.  As described, it cannot simply be a 4th cover/5th interior.  (Though I highly doubt it will  cause them to soar in demand/value.)

I would submit that such a book should belong to the 5th family due to the last three points; the copyright page in particular being the "trump" in my opinion.  However, the lack of a TM and the unique pg. 111 would distinguish it from a standard 5th, so perhaps it should be designated as a 5th minus.  

Please confirm/correct, and if others have such a book, please respond as well so we know it's not just a one-off.  I don't have one like this, unfortunately.  Scans would be appreciated, if possible!



My 4th print with white flyleaf matches all the points above.

Seems like the 4th print entry needs split into
    4th print ( red flyleaf )                 and
    4th plus print ( white flyleaf )
errr something like that. Unless, of course, someone comes up with a 4th white that doesnt match the points above. Then we have more fun to look into.



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Post Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 10:10 pm 
 

Geez, I wish people would take my B/X thread this seriously...



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Post Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 10:47 pm 
 

chromaticknight wrote:

My 4th print with white flyleaf matches all the points above.

Seems like the 4th print entry needs split into
    4th print ( red flyleaf )                 and
    4th plus print ( white flyleaf )
errr something like that. Unless, of course, someone comes up with a 4th white that doesnt match the points above. Then we have more fun to look into.



Mike

Oh, I sincerely hope so. Good work all round for digging into areas that don't necessarily have high $ attached, thanks, and never quite know what else there might be to follow.
Still other goodies to find in those ol' hardbacks, I'm sure (e.g. that 3rd+ PHB).

Still ca'n't help with this one but will keep my eyes open "just in case". :)


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Post Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 10:58 pm 
 

TheMilford wrote:Geez, I wish people would take my B/X thread this seriously...
Heh...I'll get to that one eventually.  I have quite a few threads I need to update and almost zero time.  I'm not an "expert" by any means -- but this just the sort of bizarre thing I find fun.  :D

Chromaticknight, thanks again.  I knew you'd have a copy of pretty much anything.  :D

Still, how do we determine whether something belongs with the 4ths or the 5ths?  I am most comfortable with the boundary condition being before/after Random House.  making this formerly 4th whiteflyleaf into a 5th minus rather than a 4th plus.

However, the stitching can tell us a lot.  It can help us categorize an unknown printing -- because it keeps changing.  I think it would solidify on which side of the fence the "4th white" really belongs.

If you accept the premise that these changes occurred more or less simultaneously across all three books, you can also potentially get some useful dating information.  

For example, I think it's a safe bet that the 5th MM, 7th PHB and 8th DMG were contemporaries.  Here are the ones I know.

MMs:
1st - 5/8"
2nd - 3/8"
3rd/3rd plus - 5/8"
4th Alpha (red) - 1"
4th Beta (red) - 5/8"
4th Gamma (white) - 1"
5th - 1 1/4"
6th - ??
7th - glued

DMGs:
1st - 5/8"
2nd - 1", but stitches removed/stapled in beta
3rd - ??
4th - 1"
5th - 1"
6th - ??
7th - 1"
8th - 1 1/4"
9th plus - glued

PHBs
T1st - alternates between 3/8" and 1 1/4"
1st - 5/8"
2nd - 5/8"
3rd - 5/8"
4th - 5/8"
5th - 1" (thanks to chromaticknight)
6th - ??
7th - 1 1/4"
8th - ??
9th - glued


Last edited by deimos3428 on Thu Oct 08, 2009 10:36 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Post Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 11:38 pm 
 

My red 4th matches the 1" stitch.

My white 4th in a bit inconsistent. It appears to be 7/8" for most, but fluctuates on either side for some. It may not be the best example.

The binding on the 5th is too tight to tell.

I tend to agree that, should the white 4ths continue in this trend, they are really the first 5ths. TSR simply had discontinued enough items they did not want to promote, and added many more they did (like modules), so they made the change and the present 5ths were the result.

Makes sense to me, but who knows, eh?  :wink:

  


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Post Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 11:42 pm 
 

SimperingToad wrote:My red 4th matches the 1" stitch.

My white 4th in a bit inconsistent. It appears to be 7/8" for most, but fluctuates on either side for some. It may not be the best example.

Yeah, some rounding is in order, but there's a definite and immediately noticeable difference between 5/8", 1", and 1 1/4" as I've grouped them.

A bit disappointed that the 4th white is 1", as that means once again I need to re-evaluate my position.  A 5th would have 1 1/4", not 1".

So it's a 4th plus, it undoubtedly comes after the 4th red due to the pricing changes, and unfortunately for neat printing division enthusiasts everywhere, it is the onset of the Random House MM printings.

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Post Posted: Thu Aug 13, 2009 1:47 am 
 

I'm not entirely certain that binding distance would work. A company as big as Random House would likely have several binding machines, probably of different makes/models (they wouldn't all be purchased at once), so it could be that different print runs would be bound on different binders.

  


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Post Posted: Thu Aug 13, 2009 9:49 am 
 

SimperingToad wrote:I'm not entirely certain that binding distance would work. A company as big as Random House would likely have several binding machines, probably of different makes/models (they wouldn't all be purchased at once), so it could be that different print runs would be bound on different binders.

Fair point, but it does seem to work in this case, at least given the knowns we've filled in so far.

There are some early anomalies -- T1st PHB, 2nd MM, DMG 2nd.  Otherwise, the initial standard is 5/8" stitching across the board.

The move from 5/8" to 1" seems to be somewhere in August 1979, just after the 1st DMG.  (This should be further evidenced by a PHB 5th having 1" spacing, if anyone can confirm that hypothesis.)  It may well be further evidence that the 1st DMG predates August 1979, something we were talking about long long ago in a thread far far away.

[edit]Found it!  Note in discussing the timeline for the inlay, the implication is that the 1st DMG is printed closer to May 1979, not August.  (Though that's still the release date.)[/edit]

viewtopic.php?p=15103#15103

The move from 1" to 1 1/4" seems to be sometime in 1980, after January.  I haven't pinpointed it yet  

The move to gluing seems to correspond with the orange spines in 1983.  I don't think you'll find glued books before that, or stitched books after.  Fiend Folio and early Deities and Demigods should be stitched as well.

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Post Posted: Thu Aug 13, 2009 5:28 pm 
 

deimos3428 wrote:It may well be further evidence that the 1st DMG predates August 1979, something we were talking about long long ago in a thread far far away.

Well, they'd certainly have needed a good number of DMGs for release at GenCon and that was barely mid-month in '79.


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Post Posted: Fri Aug 14, 2009 10:50 am 
 

deimos3428 wrote:
The move from 5/8" to 1" seems to be somewhere in August 1979, just after the 1st DMG.  (This should be further evidenced by a PHB 5th having 1" spacing, if anyone can confirm that hypothesis.)  It may well be further evidence that the 1st DMG predates August 1979, something we were talking about long long ago in a thread far far away.


My 5th print PHB has 1" spacing on the stitching.


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Post Posted: Fri Aug 14, 2009 11:27 am 
 

chromaticknight wrote:My 5th print PHB has 1" spacing on the stitching.

Thanks again.  I love it when a plan comes together.

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