MM - 4th printing found with red end papers (news to grodog)
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Post Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 12:53 pm 
 

TheMilford wrote:Another feature that might be interesting to note is which printing(s) still have the sewn in bindings and which have the glued bindings.

I remember Gary Gygax talking about this change and how the Blume's wanted to save money by eliminating the more expensive sewn bindings among other things.

This could also possibly point out a change in printing houses.


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Post Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 1:22 pm 
 

Shot of the binding. I don't see any sign of stitch on the 5th, but maybe the binding is too tight to see?

Image

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Post Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 1:23 pm 
 

TheMilford wrote:Another feature that might be interesting to note is which printing(s) still have the sewn in bindings and which have the glued bindings.

I remember Gary Gygax talking about this change and how the Blume's wanted to save money by eliminating the more expensive sewn bindings among other things.

This could also possibly point out a change in printing houses.

Hmm.  That certainly could be the case, but I am not completely convinced yet -- and I'll tell ya why.

The time of the stitched/glued change is not yet correlated to the Random House change for the PHB or DMG.  I think that's a great thing to sort out; and if correct we may even divine more precisely when the switch occurs.

These old threads give some interesting clues, but we don't have a complete set of data compiled yet as far as I know.  Help me fill in the blanks, folks!

viewtopic.php?p=71744&highlight=random+house#71744
viewtopic.php?p=118180&highlight=random+house#118180

DMG: stitched=4th and lower, glued=9th and higher, RH=7th and higher*
PHB: stitched=3rd and lower, glued=??, RH=7th and higher*
MM**: stitched=4th and lower, glued=6th and higher, RH=5th and higher*

*The printings I have listed are not always "inclusive", but I'm working with what's recorded in the threads.  If you know of a lower/higher printing that will move the boundaries, speak up!

**Strangely enough, we don't seem to discuss the stitching with respect to MM printings in any threads I could dig up, probably because there were enough other distinguishing features not to bother...will check stuff tonight.


Last edited by deimos3428 on Sun Oct 11, 2009 12:19 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Post Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 1:26 pm 
 

Just cross-posted with Simpering Toad's shot of the bindings.  Is that a stitched 4th white, then?  If so, the glued = Random House hypothesis just got flung out the window like so much lemur poop.

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Post Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 1:31 pm 
 

Not necessarily. The white 4th may have been an original 5th, then part of the way through, the binding was changed along with the banner and product list. This could possibly be the change in printer.

Did Random House do the actual printing? Or, were they merely the distributor?

  


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Post Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 1:53 pm 
 

SimperingToad wrote:Not necessarily. The white 4th may have been an original 5th, then part of the way through, the binding was changed along with the banner and product list. This could possibly be the change in printer.

Except that the words "Random House" are on the copyright page for both, so this is already after the switch to RH.  I find that a bit odd, because that's the sort of change you'd make when switching to RH, not shortly thereafter.  How do we explain that in our TSR Boardroom recreation?   :?

1.  TSR switches to Random House for whatever reason.
2.  Random House starts printing MM's with stitching and sends TSR a bill.
3.  Instant sticker shock! "Whoa, this is crazy, let's talk cheaper options! Glued?  Ok."

SimperingToad wrote:Did Random House do the actual printing? Or, were they merely the distributor?

I don't know.

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Post Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:12 pm 
 

PHBs
Image
7th top
3rd bottom.

The 7th has "stitching" but not the kind of heavy stitching I assume we are talking about here.

Do we need to make a more clear distinction?


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Last edited by TheMilford on Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:17 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Post Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:14 pm 
 

That's why I was asking about RH doing printing vs. distributing only. It could be that RH being a distributor coincided with the 5th print, but two different printers were used, one out of RH, one in house, or somesuch. Changes being made at the change of the printer, and not because RH was the distributor.

Yes, we're really getting into pure speculation here. Likely moreso than we need.  :wink:

We still need confirmation from others on their books, though. That'll be more useful at this point than speculation.

  

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Post Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:20 pm 
 

TheMilford wrote:[ Image ]
7th top
3rd bottom.

The 7th has "stiching" but not the kind of heavy stitching I assume we are talking about here.

Do we need to make a more clear distinction?


None of my three have the red/yellow stitching shown on the bottom. My 3rd print does. So this difference appears to have happened between the 3rd and 4th prints.

  


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Post Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:22 pm 
 

SimperingToad wrote:
None of my three have the red/yellow stitching shown on the bottom. My 3rd print does. So this difference appears to have happened between the 3rd and 4th prints.


these are PHBs... just wanted to show a comparison.

I'll post MM stiching in a minute.


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Post Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:35 pm 
 

sorry to arrive really late on this, but I have just received a 4th print MM with white pages.

I'll check it shortly and see if it has the prices listed as per the 4th white here.

I wondered if there was a European and USA print?


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Post Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:38 pm 
 

MMs

Image

6th vs 3rd


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Post Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:44 pm 
 

deimos3428 wrote:Ok, I see 'em now.  The only remaining question I have at this point is:  Are all "4th whites" like this, or is your copy another previously-unknown variant?


I've got at least one 4th white, can check in a bit.


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Post Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:45 pm 
 

Yep, that's what I see in my 3rd vs. the others. 3rd to 4th seems to be the break point.

Incidentally, I just Googled this info. I've been around the print industry for 20 years, though mostly design/pre-press (a low-level grunt), so my knowledge of post-press is limited.

"Case binding This is the method that one sees most often on hardcover books. Signatures are sewn together, glued to a gauze strip and then glued to end papers which are attached to the hard covers. It's quite a process!

Plastic comb binding Ideal for business reports and the like, this method uses plastic teeth that insert into a series of tiny holes made in a stack of pages. Comb binding machines are pretty inexpensive and the spines can be removed and reattached as needed."

It seems as though the 3rd and earlier are case bound, the yellow/red being the gauze strip, and the 4th and later are plastic comb bound?


Last edited by SimperingToad on Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
  


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Post Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:47 pm 
 

SimperingToad wrote:Plastic comb binding Ideal for business reports and the like, this method uses plastic teeth that insert into a series of tiny holes made in a stack of pages. Comb binding machines are pretty inexpensive and the spines can be removed and reattached as needed."


This is the same method as Chainmail and other similar books... not a hardbound method.


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Post Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:50 pm 
 

TheMilford wrote:
This is the same method as Chainmail and other similar books... not a hardbound method.
Oh, yeah. Now I got a mental pic. Oops! :oops: I blame the (possible) Asperger's.  :lol:

  


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Post Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 3:37 pm 
 

TheMilford wrote:PHBs
[ Image ]
7th top
3rd bottom.

The 7th has "stitching" but not the kind of heavy stitching I assume we are talking about here.

Do we need to make a more clear distinction?

I don't think any PHB's after the 3rd have the inlay.  I think the stitching/no stitching is sufficient (for now, anyway.)

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Post Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 8:11 pm 
 

deimos3428 wrote:*sigh*  There goes my plans for this evening. :D


lets have a look



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Post Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 8:14 pm 
 

It's all stitching. It's just a matter of cost methinks. I just took a look a copy of the 2E PHB and the RC, and they use the same type as the 3rd print MM/PHB (i.e. you can see the gauze). We may have hit the 'gone cheap' printing era with the red 4th print MM.

  

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Post Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 8:34 pm 
 

deimos3428 wrote:Bear with me, please.  We need to be very precise about this, as changes to the established printing order are things that need to be handled with care. ;)

I'm of the opinion that if it says "Random House", it's a 5th printing, period.  That's a considerable shift, that also corresponds with a change in the cover material.  That being said, there may indeed be more than one variant of the 5th printing.

To confirm, you're stating that your 4th print white-flyleaf has the following features, which the 5th does not:

* No TM on Yellow Banner
* No prices for Star Probe or Star Empires, but otherwise the product list resembles the pg. 111 of the 4th red-flyleaf, not the overhauled 5th-and-later list

Like the 5ths, it also has:
* Hydra is small
* Cover material is smooth (and has high color saturation?)
* Random House added on copyright page

If I've got that right, this is quite an interesting discovery, as it pretty much forces a change to the printing order.  As described, it cannot simply be a 4th cover/5th interior.  (Though I highly doubt it will  cause them to soar in demand/value.)

I would submit that such a book should belong to the 5th family due to the last three points; the copyright page in particular being the "trump" in my opinion.  However, the lack of a TM and the unique pg. 111 would distinguish it from a standard 5th, so perhaps it should be designated as a 5th minus.  

Please confirm/correct, and if others have such a book, please respond as well so we know it's not just a one-off.  I don't have one like this, unfortunately.  Scans would be appreciated, if possible!



My 4th print with white flyleaf matches all the points above.

Seems like the 4th print entry needs split into
    4th print ( red flyleaf )                 and
    4th plus print ( white flyleaf )
errr something like that. Unless, of course, someone comes up with a 4th white that doesnt match the points above. Then we have more fun to look into.



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