MM - 4th printing found with red end papers (news to grodog)
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Post Posted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 10:25 pm 
 

SimperingToad wrote:I would also put the call out for a red 5th in addition. How does it mesh with the others? I'll see what I can do for scans.

I agree to put the call out, but I'm somewhat convinced that bit is completely in error.  I do not think a red 5th exists, as nobody to date has produced one and those that thought they had one turned out to have standard 4ths on further inspection.

Though I've been wrong before, and undoubtedly will be again.  The rest makes a good deal of sense.

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Post Posted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 11:04 pm 
 

Lack of a red 5th makes things easier.  :D

Okay, onward to pics. Sorry, but while my video cam does have the ability to take stills, it is not great... nor are the user's skills!  :lol:

First, the covers. Note the TM only on the rightmost cover. It's really hard to see the black highlights on the other two. Sorry. Also, you can sorta see the 'rippling' effect in the valley by the spine on the 4th red, missing from the other two.
Image

Next, the copyright page. I've pointed out where the Random House blurb is located.
Image

Now, the Hydra. Notice where the bottom of the pic falls out of line with the type. That's how I noticed the difference to begin with.
Image

Lastly, the back page of the product list. Again, very hard to see, so I indicated where the prices are on the 4th Red. You can see where they are missing on the white 4th.
Image

  


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Post Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 10:20 am 
 

SimperingToad wrote:Lastly, the back page of the product list. Again, very hard to see, so I indicated where the prices are on the 4th Red. You can see where they are missing on the white 4th.
[ Image ]

I am having trouble loading the images for some reason, but this is the primary point of interest in that it differs from both the fourth and the fifth...will check back in a bit.

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Post Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 10:57 am 
 

I only see red X's inside white boxes....


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Post Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 12:27 pm 
 

Ok, I see 'em now.  The only remaining question I have at this point is:  Are all "4th whites" like this, or is your copy another previously-unknown variant?

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Post Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 12:35 pm 
 

Another feature that might be interesting to note is which printing(s) still have the sewn in bindings and which have the glued bindings.

I remember Gary Gygax talking about this change and how the Blume's wanted to save money by eliminating the more expensive sewn bindings among other things.

This could also possibly point out a change in printing houses.


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Post Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 12:53 pm 
 

TheMilford wrote:Another feature that might be interesting to note is which printing(s) still have the sewn in bindings and which have the glued bindings.

I remember Gary Gygax talking about this change and how the Blume's wanted to save money by eliminating the more expensive sewn bindings among other things.

This could also possibly point out a change in printing houses.


Yup.


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Post Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 1:22 pm 
 

Shot of the binding. I don't see any sign of stitch on the 5th, but maybe the binding is too tight to see?

Image

Gnat, don't know what to say. Try another browser? I'm on a Mac with an older system, and I can load them in Firefox 2, and Safari 1.3. Netscape 9, however, does not load them. I can right-click and open the 'image' in a new window, though.

  


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Post Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 1:23 pm 
 

TheMilford wrote:Another feature that might be interesting to note is which printing(s) still have the sewn in bindings and which have the glued bindings.

I remember Gary Gygax talking about this change and how the Blume's wanted to save money by eliminating the more expensive sewn bindings among other things.

This could also possibly point out a change in printing houses.

Hmm.  That certainly could be the case, but I am not completely convinced yet -- and I'll tell ya why.

The time of the stitched/glued change is not yet correlated to the Random House change for the PHB or DMG.  I think that's a great thing to sort out; and if correct we may even divine more precisely when the switch occurs.

These old threads give some interesting clues, but we don't have a complete set of data compiled yet as far as I know.  Help me fill in the blanks, folks!

viewtopic.php?p=71744&highlight=random+house#71744
viewtopic.php?p=118180&highlight=random+house#118180

DMG: stitched=4th and lower, glued=9th and higher, RH=7th and higher*
PHB: stitched=3rd and lower, glued=??, RH=7th and higher*
MM**: stitched=4th and lower, glued=6th and higher, RH=5th and higher*

*The printings I have listed are not always "inclusive", but I'm working with what's recorded in the threads.  If you know of a lower/higher printing that will move the boundaries, speak up!

**Strangely enough, we don't seem to discuss the stitching with respect to MM printings in any threads I could dig up, probably because there were enough other distinguishing features not to bother...will check stuff tonight.


Last edited by deimos3428 on Sun Oct 11, 2009 12:19 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Post Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 1:26 pm 
 

Just cross-posted with Simpering Toad's shot of the bindings.  Is that a stitched 4th white, then?  If so, the glued = Random House hypothesis just got flung out the window like so much lemur poop.

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Post Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 1:31 pm 
 

Not necessarily. The white 4th may have been an original 5th, then part of the way through, the binding was changed along with the banner and product list. This could possibly be the change in printer.

Did Random House do the actual printing? Or, were they merely the distributor?

  


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Post Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 1:53 pm 
 

SimperingToad wrote:Not necessarily. The white 4th may have been an original 5th, then part of the way through, the binding was changed along with the banner and product list. This could possibly be the change in printer.

Except that the words "Random House" are on the copyright page for both, so this is already after the switch to RH.  I find that a bit odd, because that's the sort of change you'd make when switching to RH, not shortly thereafter.  How do we explain that in our TSR Boardroom recreation?   :?

1.  TSR switches to Random House for whatever reason.
2.  Random House starts printing MM's with stitching and sends TSR a bill.
3.  Instant sticker shock! "Whoa, this is crazy, let's talk cheaper options! Glued?  Ok."

SimperingToad wrote:Did Random House do the actual printing? Or, were they merely the distributor?

I don't know.

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Post Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:12 pm 
 

PHBs
Image
7th top
3rd bottom.

The 7th has "stitching" but not the kind of heavy stitching I assume we are talking about here.

Do we need to make a more clear distinction?


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Last edited by TheMilford on Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:17 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Post Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:14 pm 
 

That's why I was asking about RH doing printing vs. distributing only. It could be that RH being a distributor coincided with the 5th print, but two different printers were used, one out of RH, one in house, or somesuch. Changes being made at the change of the printer, and not because RH was the distributor.

Yes, we're really getting into pure speculation here. Likely moreso than we need.  :wink:

We still need confirmation from others on their books, though. That'll be more useful at this point than speculation.

  

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Post Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:20 pm 
 

TheMilford wrote:[ Image ]
7th top
3rd bottom.

The 7th has "stiching" but not the kind of heavy stitching I assume we are talking about here.

Do we need to make a more clear distinction?


None of my three have the red/yellow stitching shown on the bottom. My 3rd print does. So this difference appears to have happened between the 3rd and 4th prints.

  


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Post Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:22 pm 
 

SimperingToad wrote:
None of my three have the red/yellow stitching shown on the bottom. My 3rd print does. So this difference appears to have happened between the 3rd and 4th prints.


these are PHBs... just wanted to show a comparison.

I'll post MM stiching in a minute.


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Post Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:35 pm 
 

sorry to arrive really late on this, but I have just received a 4th print MM with white pages.

I'll check it shortly and see if it has the prices listed as per the 4th white here.

I wondered if there was a European and USA print?


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Post Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:38 pm 
 

MMs

Image

6th vs 3rd


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