MM - 4th printing found with red end papers (news to grodog)
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Post Posted: Wed Dec 17, 2008 3:20 pm 
 

grodog wrote:Hmmm, it looks like Brian is currently selling the missing link, perhaps?:  
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Allan, my copy matches exactly as to the site currently reads for a third print. :)


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Post Posted: Wed Dec 17, 2008 4:08 pm 
 

Ah, sorry:  I misunderstood your Q&A reply then.  

False alarm folks:  back to your regularly scheduled DMG watching ;)


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Post Posted: Sat Jul 25, 2009 11:49 pm 
 

Do we have any sense whether a 4th- should have red endpapers or white endpapers?  Re-reading through the analysis on the thread makes me think it should probably have red, but I'm not sure.

Thoughts?


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Post Posted: Sun Jul 26, 2009 5:03 pm 
 

grodog wrote:Do we have any sense whether a 4th- should have red endpapers or white endpapers?  Re-reading through the analysis on the thread makes me think it should probably have red, but I'm not sure.

Thoughts?


I think the red endpapers sounds right, but there's no specific outline for it other than "both have been spotted" in the current write-up.

I wonder if both the MM and PHB listings should be updated with the info that Deimos and the others put together. (For instance, there's that PHB 7th print version that has the reversed magic-mouth artwork along with the various other 7th's that have different catalog listings and such)

  


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Post Posted: Sun Jul 26, 2009 8:39 pm 
 

grodog wrote:Do we have any sense whether a 4th- should have red endpapers or white endpapers?  Re-reading through the analysis on the thread makes me think it should probably have red, but I'm not sure.

Thoughts?

We don't know for certain, but I would suspect red.  The standard 4th has both red and white variants, and the rest before it have only red.  (Perhaps the white-flyleaf 4th should be considered a 4th plus?)

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Post Posted: Thu Jul 30, 2009 9:33 pm 
 

I just acquired a spiffy 4th print with red flyleaves. The vampire errata is present (loses 1/3 hit points per round), and there are no prices in the catalog except for The Dragon, and on the reverse side Star Probe and Star Empires also have prices.

I would also be inclined to go with the red flyleaf coming first. They just had extra sheets from the last printing, and since it was already bought, used it first until they ran out and used (presumably) cheaper white leaf.

At least in theory.

  

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Post Posted: Mon Aug 10, 2009 10:56 pm 
 

Just for gits and shiggles, I checked my original store-bought copy of the MM, my very used and dying copy, and it is a 4th print with white flyleaf. Vampires still die in 3 rounds...  :wink:

However... the prices for Star Probe and Star Empires are gone. The Dragon price is still there. Also, the cover material seems different from my copy with the red flyleaf. The red leaf cover seems similar to the material my 3rd print PHB is made from.

  

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Post Posted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 2:40 pm 
 

Okay, I did a brief side-by-side of my 4th print red and white, and while not an exhaustive search, I did turn up a few differences:

The cover material is not the same.

Prices for Star Probe and Star Empires only appear on the red version.

The illustration for the hydra has been made smaller in the white version.

The words "Distributed to the book trade in the United States by Random House, Inc. and in Canada by Random House of Canada, Ltd." have been added to the white version above the "inquiries" line on the title page.

Both have included the vampire errata and both have the new illustrations of the Eye of the Deep, Violet Fungus, and Giant Rats.

  


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Post Posted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 3:10 pm 
 

*sigh*  There goes my plans for this evening. :D

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Post Posted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 3:18 pm 
 

deimos3428 wrote:*sigh*  There goes my plans for this evening. :D

Hehe... sorry.

Want further complication? And I'm sure we all do. The white version, to my cursory inspection, is much closer to a 5th print than to the red leaf. The only difference I noted is the banner on the cover and the product list overhaul for the 5th. Could the so-called white leaf 4th actually be an early 5th?

I could see a printing being halted to update a product list, especially if there are some products no longer being sold. The change in the banner could be a 'while we're here, let's add the TM' moment.

Or, maybe I'm overthinking.

  


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Post Posted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 4:01 pm 
 

Hmm.  I am attempting to avoid significant analysis without my books sitting in front of me, but that point regarding "Random House" got me thinking, so I dug through some old threads here and found this comment from a no-good lemur:

viewtopic.php?p=86315&highlight=random+house#86315

So it looks like your white-flyleaf 4th might actually be a standard 5th.  How does it differ from the fifth as described on the MM page here?  (Note:  Lots of printings claim to be the 4th Edition.  Monster Manuals lie!)

http://www.acaeum.com/ddindexes/setpages/monster.html

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Post Posted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 5:10 pm 
 

As mentioned in my last post, the white 4th does have the banner characteristic to the red 4th. The product list does not match that of a red 4th nor the 5th, though it's much closer to a red 4th.

Internally, the white 4th is (so far) a match for the 5th with the exception of the product listing.

Oh, and the cover material of the white 4th is definately the 'smooth' type.

  


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Post Posted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:15 pm 
 

Bear with me, please.  We need to be very precise about this, as changes to the established printing order are things that need to be handled with care. ;)

I'm of the opinion that if it says "Random House", it's a 5th printing, period.  That's a considerable shift, that also corresponds with a change in the cover material.  That being said, there may indeed be more than one variant of the 5th printing.

To confirm, you're stating that your 4th print white-flyleaf has the following features, which the 5th does not:

* No TM on Yellow Banner
* No prices for Star Probe or Star Empires, but otherwise the product list resembles the pg. 111 of the 4th red-flyleaf, not the overhauled 5th-and-later list

Like the 5ths, it also has:
* Hydra is small
* Cover material is smooth (and has high color saturation?)
* Random House added on copyright page

If I've got that right, this is quite an interesting discovery, as it pretty much forces a change to the printing order.  As described, it cannot simply be a 4th cover/5th interior.  (Though I highly doubt it will  cause them to soar in demand/value.)

I would submit that such a book should belong to the 5th family due to the last three points; the copyright page in particular being the "trump" in my opinion.  However, the lack of a TM and the unique pg. 111 would distinguish it from a standard 5th, so perhaps it should be designated as a 5th minus.  

Please confirm/correct, and if others have such a book, please respond as well so we know it's not just a one-off.  I don't have one like this, unfortunately.  Scans would be appreciated, if possible!

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Post Posted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 10:03 pm 
 

deimos3428 wrote:Bear with me, please.  We need to be very precise about this, as changes to the established printing order are things that need to be handled with care. ;)

Absolutely. Alterations in the space-time continuum do tend to wreak havoc.

deimos3428 wrote:I'm of the opinion that if it says "Random House", it's a 5th printing, period.  That's a considerable shift, that also corresponds with a change in the cover material.  That being said, there may indeed be more than one variant of the 5th printing.

To confirm, you're stating that your 4th print white-flyleaf has the following features, which the 5th does not:

* No TM on Yellow Banner
* No prices for Star Probe or Star Empires, but otherwise the product list resembles the pg. 111 of the 4th red-flyleaf, not the overhauled 5th-and-later list


Correct on all counts. Even to the black highlight on the banner type for my white 4th.

deimos3428 wrote:Like the 5ths, it also has:
* Hydra is small
* Cover material is smooth (and has high color saturation?)
* Random House added on copyright page

Correct, though I can't help with color saturation, as this copy was my original, and is in Good condition at best. The spine is being held on with tape and all that. The cover material does not have that 'rippled' effect at the indent of the spine like the red 4th and my 3rd PHB, so it's definately different stuff than the red 4th.

deimos3428 wrote:If I've got that right, this is quite an interesting discovery, as it pretty much forces a change to the printing order.  As described, it cannot simply be a 4th cover/5th interior.  (Though I highly doubt it will  cause them to soar in demand/value.)

I would submit that such a book should belong to the 5th family due to the last three points; the copyright page in particular being the "trump" in my opinion.  However, the lack of a TM and the unique pg. 111 would distinguish it from a standard 5th, so perhaps it should be designated as a 5th minus.

Well, if you'll indulge a little theorizing a moment, I recall on the MM page that there were reports of a red fly 5th. Keep in mind I have not seen one, so I don't know what it contains as far as banner, copyright page, etc. Putting the puzzle pieces together, here's what might (and I use the term very hypothetically) have happened in the process. I am not going to assign a printing, but just use what we already have for reference purposes.

A) 4th prints are released with new bannered cover and red flyleaf. (standard 4th)

B) Changes are made to the hydra; prices are removed from Star Empires/Probe; New cover material used; Random House appears on the copyright page; red fly leaf retained due to stock still being available and already paid for. (the mysterious 5th with red flyleaf)

C) Red flyleaf runs out, and cheaper white flyleaf is used. Otherwise, no change over Step B. (my white 4th)

D) Overhaul in the product catalog forces halt to assembly until new signatures are printed for that section; front office decides at the same point that 'TM' needs to be added to the banner type. Cheapest way is to wipe the black highlights from the black plate, and make a new magenta plate so there are no registration issues. (standard 5th)

This would solve the mystery of why both 4th and 5th have red/white flyleaves reported. But again, this is 'reeeeaaally' big time speculation on my part.

deimos3428 wrote:Please confirm/correct, and if others have such a book, please respond as well so we know it's not just a one-off.  I don't have one like this, unfortunately.  Scans would be appreciated, if possible!

I would also put the call out for a red 5th in addition. How does it mesh with the others? I'll see what I can do for scans.

  


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Post Posted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 10:25 pm 
 

SimperingToad wrote:I would also put the call out for a red 5th in addition. How does it mesh with the others? I'll see what I can do for scans.

I agree to put the call out, but I'm somewhat convinced that bit is completely in error.  I do not think a red 5th exists, as nobody to date has produced one and those that thought they had one turned out to have standard 4ths on further inspection.

Though I've been wrong before, and undoubtedly will be again.  The rest makes a good deal of sense.

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Post Posted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 11:04 pm 
 

Lack of a red 5th makes things easier.  :D

Okay, onward to pics. Sorry, but while my video cam does have the ability to take stills, it is not great... nor are the user's skills!  :lol:

First, the covers. Note the TM only on the rightmost cover. It's really hard to see the black highlights on the other two. Sorry. Also, you can sorta see the 'rippling' effect in the valley by the spine on the 4th red, missing from the other two.
Image

Next, the copyright page. I've pointed out where the Random House blurb is located.
Image

Now, the Hydra. Notice where the bottom of the pic falls out of line with the type. That's how I noticed the difference to begin with.
Image

Lastly, the back page of the product list. Again, very hard to see, so I indicated where the prices are on the 4th Red. You can see where they are missing on the white 4th.
Image

  


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Post Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 10:20 am 
 

SimperingToad wrote:Lastly, the back page of the product list. Again, very hard to see, so I indicated where the prices are on the 4th Red. You can see where they are missing on the white 4th.
[ Image ]

I am having trouble loading the images for some reason, but this is the primary point of interest in that it differs from both the fourth and the fifth...will check back in a bit.

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Post Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 10:57 am 
 

I only see red X's inside white boxes....


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Post Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 12:27 pm 
 

Ok, I see 'em now.  The only remaining question I have at this point is:  Are all "4th whites" like this, or is your copy another previously-unknown variant?

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Post Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 12:35 pm 
 

Another feature that might be interesting to note is which printing(s) still have the sewn in bindings and which have the glued bindings.

I remember Gary Gygax talking about this change and how the Blume's wanted to save money by eliminating the more expensive sewn bindings among other things.

This could also possibly point out a change in printing houses.


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