Ah, sorry:  I misunderstood your Q&A reply then.  

False alarm folks:  back to your regularly scheduled DMG watching

grodog wrote:Do we have any sense whether a 4th- should have red endpapers or white endpapers?  Re-reading through the analysis on the thread makes me think it should probably have red, but I'm not sure.

Thoughts?

I think the red endpapers sounds right, but there's no specific outline for it other than "both have been spotted" in the current write-up.

I wonder if both the MM and PHB listings should be updated with the info that Deimos and the others put together. (For instance, there's that PHB 7th print version that has the reversed magic-mouth artwork along with the various other 7th's that have different catalog listings and such)

I just acquired a spiffy 4th print with red flyleaves. The vampire errata is present (loses 1/3 hit points per round), and there are no prices in the catalog except for The Dragon, and on the reverse side Star Probe and Star Empires also have prices.

I would also be inclined to go with the red flyleaf coming first. They just had extra sheets from the last printing, and since it was already bought, used it first until they ran out and used (presumably) cheaper white leaf.

At least in theory.

Okay, I did a brief side-by-side of my 4th print red and white, and while not an exhaustive search, I did turn up a few differences:

The cover material is not the same.

Prices for Star Probe and Star Empires only appear on the red version.

The illustration for the hydra has been made smaller in the white version.

The words "Distributed to the book trade in the United States by Random House, Inc. and in Canada by Random House of Canada, Ltd." have been added to the white version above the "inquiries" line on the title page.

Both have included the vampire errata and both have the new illustrations of the Eye of the Deep, Violet Fungus, and Giant Rats.

deimos3428 wrote:*sigh*  There goes my plans for this evening.

Hehe... sorry.

Want further complication? And I'm sure we all do. The white version, to my cursory inspection, is much closer to a 5th print than to the red leaf. The only difference I noted is the banner on the cover and the product list overhaul for the 5th. Could the so-called white leaf 4th actually be an early 5th?

I could see a printing being halted to update a product list, especially if there are some products no longer being sold. The change in the banner could be a 'while we're here, let's add the TM' moment.

Or, maybe I'm overthinking.

As mentioned in my last post, the white 4th does have the banner characteristic to the red 4th. The product list does not match that of a red 4th nor the 5th, though it's much closer to a red 4th.

Internally, the white 4th is (so far) a match for the 5th with the exception of the product listing.

Oh, and the cover material of the white 4th is definately the 'smooth' type.

deimos3428 wrote:Bear with me, please.  We need to be very precise about this, as changes to the established printing order are things that need to be handled with care.

Absolutely. Alterations in the space-time continuum do tend to wreak havoc.

deimos3428 wrote:I'm of the opinion that if it says "Random House", it's a 5th printing, period.  That's a considerable shift, that also corresponds with a change in the cover material.  That being said, there may indeed be more than one variant of the 5th printing.

To confirm, you're stating that your 4th print white-flyleaf has the following features, which the 5th does not:

* No TM on Yellow Banner
* No prices for Star Probe or Star Empires, but otherwise the product list resembles the pg. 111 of the 4th red-flyleaf, not the overhauled 5th-and-later list

Correct on all counts. Even to the black highlight on the banner type for my white 4th.

deimos3428 wrote:Like the 5ths, it also has:
* Hydra is small
* Cover material is smooth (and has high color saturation?)
* Random House added on copyright page

Correct, though I can't help with color saturation, as this copy was my original, and is in Good condition at best. The spine is being held on with tape and all that. The cover material does not have that 'rippled' effect at the indent of the spine like the red 4th and my 3rd PHB, so it's definately different stuff than the red 4th.

deimos3428 wrote:If I've got that right, this is quite an interesting discovery, as it pretty much forces a change to the printing order.  As described, it cannot simply be a 4th cover/5th interior.  (Though I highly doubt it will  cause them to soar in demand/value.)

I would submit that such a book should belong to the 5th family due to the last three points; the copyright page in particular being the "trump" in my opinion.  However, the lack of a TM and the unique pg. 111 would distinguish it from a standard 5th, so perhaps it should be designated as a 5th minus.

Well, if you'll indulge a little theorizing a moment, I recall on the MM page that there were reports of a red fly 5th. Keep in mind I have not seen one, so I don't know what it contains as far as banner, copyright page, etc. Putting the puzzle pieces together, here's what might (and I use the term very hypothetically) have happened in the process. I am not going to assign a printing, but just use what we already have for reference purposes.

A) 4th prints are released with new bannered cover and red flyleaf. (standard 4th)

B) Changes are made to the hydra; prices are removed from Star Empires/Probe; New cover material used; Random House appears on the copyright page; red fly leaf retained due to stock still being available and already paid for. (the mysterious 5th with red flyleaf)

C) Red flyleaf runs out, and cheaper white flyleaf is used. Otherwise, no change over Step B. (my white 4th)

D) Overhaul in the product catalog forces halt to assembly until new signatures are printed for that section; front office decides at the same point that 'TM' needs to be added to the banner type. Cheapest way is to wipe the black highlights from the black plate, and make a new magenta plate so there are no registration issues. (standard 5th)

This would solve the mystery of why both 4th and 5th have red/white flyleaves reported. But again, this is 'reeeeaaally' big time speculation on my part.

deimos3428 wrote:Please confirm/correct, and if others have such a book, please respond as well so we know it's not just a one-off.  I don't have one like this, unfortunately.  Scans would be appreciated, if possible!

I would also put the call out for a red 5th in addition. How does it mesh with the others? I'll see what I can do for scans.

Lack of a red 5th makes things easier.  

Okay, onward to pics. Sorry, but while my video cam does have the ability to take stills, it is not great... nor are the user's skills!  

First, the covers. Note the TM only on the rightmost cover. It's really hard to see the black highlights on the other two. Sorry. Also, you can sorta see the 'rippling' effect in the valley by the spine on the 4th red, missing from the other two.


Next, the copyright page. I've pointed out where the Random House blurb is located.


Now, the Hydra. Notice where the bottom of the pic falls out of line with the type. That's how I noticed the difference to begin with.


Lastly, the back page of the product list. Again, very hard to see, so I indicated where the prices are on the 4th Red. You can see where they are missing on the white 4th.

I only see red X's inside white boxes....