Fixed the chart with additions, corrected the front cover section of the 5th which had horrible cut-and-paste errors, removed flyleaf weight as too difficult to measure with accuracy.

I think we've got it all now.  I'd be interested in hearing where people think the line ought to be drawn.  Personally, at this point I'm thinking the 4th Beta is more similar to the 4th Alpha than the 5th, so that one's not difficult for me.  But while the 4th Gamma is more similar to a 5th than the 4th Alpha, and that's where I'd divide them "by the numbers" -- the cover and catalog pages are more compelling features.  I'm on the fence.

The 4th Beta strikes me as a run made due to having exhausted the stockpile, minor edits being made before print. 4th print all the way.

The 4th Gamma is a tough one. I'm under the impression that a 5th print was in the works from this, but this was rushed out before all edits were made. I suppose it could be considered a prototype 5th, but as an interim print, it might be more appropriate as a 4th.

Howdy All,


Looking through my MM's I have two that are very similar to a 4th Gamma but both have red endpapers and fly leaves and slightly different stitches. Here are their traits:

4th ?
Front Cover: Yellow-banner reads "ADVANCED D&D" and black outlined letters; Wizard logo; smooth textured
*Flyleafs: Red
Pages: smooth
*Stitching: 3/4" to 7/8"; 15 stitches
Rear Cover: ISBN
Spine: New spine
Copyright Page: "TM"; "4th Edition, August, 1979"; Jean Wells credit; "Distributed to the book trade in the United States by Random House.."; center justified "Inquiries..." lines; ISBN;
Giants: 19-25
Hydra: Smaller raised illustration
Vampire: "per round of immersion"
Page 111: No prices; DMG not listed as "Future Release"
Page 112: No prices; No prices next to STAR PROBE; No prices next to STAR EMPIRES; "send for our catalog."; "potpourri" Gencon ad


Futures Bright,

Paul

deimos3428 wrote:Fixed the chart with additions, corrected the front cover section of the 5th which had horrible cut-and-paste errors, removed flyleaf weight as too difficult to measure with accuracy.

I think we've got it all now.  I'd be interested in hearing where people think the line ought to be drawn.  Personally, at this point I'm thinking the 4th Beta is more similar to the 4th Alpha than the 5th, so that one's not difficult for me.  But while the 4th Gamma is more similar to a 5th than the 4th Alpha, and that's where I'd divide them "by the numbers" -- the cover and catalog pages are more compelling features.  I'm on the fence.

What you can maybe do is see about matching the catalogs to other books.  I know MM5 matches PHB7/8.  My MM4 on file doesn't have the 112 page, so not sure which one it came from though it can't be the same as PHB5 since that one has DMG as Future release.  Most if not all of the OD&D Supplements from 11/79 still have the Star Probe as $4 for booklet, but Star Empires has no booklet price.

ShaneG.

deimos3428 wrote:Well, that's...interesting.  Without any good reason not to, I'd have to put that between the "4th Beta" and "4th Gamma" based on the flyleaf alone.  

It does re-open the question of where to draw the line between 4th/5th -- not that we managed to close it yet.  If we're drawing it at "Random House", this is an early red 5th.  If we're drawing it at flyleaf color, it's a late 4th.  If we're drawing it at cover TM, it's also a 4th.  Etc.  

For now, I'll shift everybody down by one.  This is the 4th Gamma, the previous is now a 4th Delta.

Still no "4th minus" though...

Maybe I'm just getting confused, but doesn't this match the 4th Beta in my photos and not a different print?

Hey!  I've finally gotten around to this!

Can I assume that deimos' chart on the preceding page is the "final" determination on the sequence, before I put this to bed?

Foul

The Collector's Trove wrote in MM - 4th printing found with red end papers (news to grodog):I believe there is a 4th print just prior to the one listed as a 4th print on the Acaeum. This 4th "minus" print should have the errata for the vampire included and the prices listed in the back catalog. I have seen a number of 4th prints and the answers always come back "has errata" and "does not have prices".

The 2nd Alpha DMG I own has the pages from the MM which include the errata for the vampire included and the prices listed in the back catalog.

Paul (or someone else owning a 2A DMG), would you please post a pic of what the MM 4- listing page with prices included looks like?

FoulFoot wrote in Help identifying Monster Manual:I think there's one or two emails in the archives on the MM.  Paul never did a flowchart on the MM, just the DMG.

I'll adjust the info re: the spines on the 3rd/4th print.  What needs to change for the 5th print?

Foul

ok, I'm posting the follow up in this thread in case it makes it easier to find years down the road

we were discussing additional info on 4th and 5th prints here a week ago
Help identifying Monster Manual

In the photos below, there is a 4th print Gamma on the left and a 5th print on the right. (the 4th Gamma in these photos is obviously rougher shape)
Note that when the books are stacked together, you can see that the pages seem thinner somewhat on the 5th print, and that the pages seem slightly less wide. I don't think the complete discrepancy is how far the pages are shoved into the spine.
Also even though the spines are similar in content, you can see that there was fiddling around with the font spacing on the yellow letters for "Manual"

Cover textures are different.
Page paper stock/textures are different.
Page dimensions are slightly different (?)
Page paper whiteness is different (?)
Spine lettering content is the same, but spacing is slightly different
Catalog listing in the back is significantly different.

btw, the only prices noted are for "The Dragon" subscription. I'm not sure if that was a mistake in our info previously that "there were no prices in the catalog."

photos of 4th Gamma versus 5th part 2