deimos3428 wrote:4th Alpha (Red): Does not have right-justified prices on page 112, but does have "(booklet only $4.00)" after STAR PROBE description, and "(booklet only $5.50)" after STAR EMPIRES description.  Also states "send $2.00 for our catalog." in the last paragraph.  I am assuming it came first because it still has some prices.  I have one of these.

Adding potential confusion, here's what I have:

red - yes
4th edition - yes
Random House distrib - no
$4.00 - yes
$5.50 - yes
$2.00 - no, says "send for our catalog"
hydra - full picture
giant - 19 to 25
vampire - round
red/yellow inlay - no
stitch spacing - 7/8" to 1 1/4" (inconsistent), 10 stitches if I'm counting right


So that seems to be a match to 4th Alpha (Red) except for the $2.00 difference.

TheHistorian wrote:So that seems to be a match to 4th Alpha (Red) except for the $2.00 difference.

Argh!  I think this may be an error on my part; I will confirm tonight if the 4th Alpha (my copy, anyway...) has this or not.

Going back to this earlier post, I have further questions regarding potpourri for all you folks with "new" printing variants, and also if the DMG is listed as a future release or not on pg 111:

See: viewtopic.php?p=43135&highlight=send+catalog#43135

Do note that post is over three years old, and I'm comparing the 3rd with a 4th (Alpha).

Using current printing rather than proposed:

3rd Print (not 3rd+)
Giants: strength from 21-30
Vampires: 3 turns
DMG: future release
Catalog: $2

4th Red
Giants: 19-25
Vampires: 3 melee rounds
DMG: available
Catalog: free (doesn't say it's free, though)

4th White
Giants: 19-25
Vampires: 3 melee rounds
DMG: available
Catalog: free (doesn't say it's free, though)

5th
Giants: 19-25
Vampires: 3 melee rounds
DMG: available
Catalog: free (and says free)

EDIT: I made error in 3rd print vampire info

Ok, on the Giant strength passage, I went back to the beginning.  The 1st through 3rd+ read:

"...with strengths ranging from 21 to 30..."

Later printings read (and it was never further corrected in the book)

"...with strengths ranging from 19 to 25..."

and the official errata in Dragon #35 reads

"...with strengths ranging from 19 to 24..."

My (hopefully) comprehensive list of printing notes from the 3rd Plus through 5th.  Asterisks indicate a change from the immediately previous printing, question marks mean I'm not sure.  NEW: Plus marks indicate a change since the 4th Alpha, but not different from the immediately previous printing, to help gauge cumulative change.  If you note any errors, let me know.

3rd Plus
*Front Cover: *Yellow-banner reads "ADVANCED D&D"; *black outlined letters; Wizard logo; rough textured
Flyleafs: Red
Pages: smooth
*Stitching: approx 5/8", 17 or 18 stitches
Rear Cover: No ISBN
Spine: Early red-letter version; wizard logo
Copyright Page:  (R), "3rd Edition, December 1978"; full justified "Inquiries..." lines;
Giants: 21-30
Hydra: Larger picture
Vampire: "per turn of immersion"
Page 111: right-justified prices; DMG listed as "Future Release"
Page 112: right-justified prices; "booklet only $4.00" STAR PROBE; "booklet only $5.50" STAR EMPIRES; "send $2.00 for our catalog."; "potpourri" Gencon ad

-------------------------------------------------------
4th Alpha
Front Cover: Yellow-banner reads "ADVANCED D&D"; black outlined letters; Wizard logo; rough textured
Flyleafs: Red
Pages: smooth
*Stitching: *approx 1", 11 or 12 stitches
*Rear Cover: *ISBN
*Spine: *New, completely updated spine
*Copyright Page: *"TM"; *"4th Edition, August, 1979"; *added Jean Wells credit; *center justified "Inquiries..." lines; *ISBN added; *Giants: *19-25
Hydra: Larger picture
Vampire: *"per round of immersion"
*Page 111: *No prices; *DMG not listed as "Future Release"
*Page 112: *No prices; "booklet only $4.00" STAR PROBE; "booklet only $5.50" STAR EMPIRES; *"send for our catalog."; "potpourri" Gencon ad

-------------------------------------------------------
4th Beta
*Front Cover: Yellow-banner reads "ADVANCED D&D"; black outlined letters; Wizard logo; *smooth textured
Flyleafs: Red
Pages: smooth
*Stitching: *approx 3/4", 16 to 18 stitches
Rear Cover: ISBN
Spine: New spine
*Copyright Page: "TM"; "4th Edition, August, 1979"; Jean Wells credit; *"Distributed to the book trade in the United States by Random House.."; center justified "Inquiries..." lines;
Giants: 19-25
*Hydra: *Smaller raised illustration
Vampire: "per round of immersion"
Page 111: No prices; DMG not listed as "Future Release"
*Page 112: No prices; *No prices next to STAR PROBE; *No prices next to STAR EMPIRES; "send for our catalog."; "potpourri" Gencon ad

-------------------------------------------------------
4th Gamma
+Front Cover: Yellow-banner reads "ADVANCED D&D" and black outlined letters; Wizard logo; +smooth textured
*Flyleafs: White
Pages: smooth
*Stitching: *approx 7/8", 15 stitches
Rear Cover: ISBN
Spine: New spine
+Copyright Page: "TM"; "4th Edition, August, 1979"; Jean Wells credit; +"Distributed to the book trade in the United States by Random House.."; center justified "Inquiries..." lines; ISBN;
Giants: 19-25
+Hydra: +Smaller raised illustration
Vampire: "per round of immersion"
Page 111: No prices; DMG not listed as "Future Release"
+Page 112: No prices; +No prices next to STAR PROBE; +No prices next to STAR EMPIRES; "send for our catalog."; "potpourri" Gencon ad

-------------------------------------------------------
5th
*Front Cover: *Yellow-banner reads "ADVANCED D&D" but no outlined letters; *TM after banner text; Wizard logo; *smooth textured
+Flyleafs: White
*Pages: *rough
*Stitching: *approx 1 1/4", *8 or 9 stitches
Rear Cover: ISBN
Spine: New spine
+Copyright Page: "TM"; "4th Edition, August, 1979"; Jean Wells credit; +"Distributed to the book trade in the United States by Random House.."; center justified "Inquiries..." lines; ISBN;
Giants: 19-25
+Hydra: +Smaller raised illustration
Vampire: "per round of immersion"
*Page 111: *Overhauled catalog
*Page 112: *Overhauled catalog; *"send for our free catalog."; *"potpourri" line removed from Gencon ad

-------------------------------------------------------

As you can see, there are sweeping changes between the 3rd Plus and the 4th Alpha.  The missing answers to the 4th Gamma will help determine where to draw the line between the 4ths and the 5ths.  (Wherever the most change occurs makes sense.)  The differences between the 4th Alpha/Beta are fairly minor, only a stitching change, the smaller hydra, and the removal of the price notes for STAR PROBE/STAR EMPIRE.

Good work, everyone, and by all means please keep that info coming and I'll update as required.

deimos3428 wrote:-------------------------------------------------------
4th Beta
Front Cover: Yellow-banner reads "ADVANCED D&D"; black outlined letters; Wizard logo; rough textured
Flyleafs: Red, heavy paper weight
Pages: smooth
*Stitching: *approx 5/8", 17 or 18 stitches
Rear Cover: ISBN
Spine: New spine
Copyright Page: "TM"; "4th Edition, August, 1979"; Jean Wells credit; center justified "Inquiries..." lines; ISBN;
Giants: 19-25
*Hydra: *Smaller raised illustration
Vampire: "per round of immersion"
Page 111: No prices; DMG not listed as "Future Release"
*Page 112: No prices; *No prices next to STAR PROBE; *No prices next to STAR EMPIRES; "send for our catalog."; "potpourri" Gencon ad

-------------------------------------------------------

I think the texture for the cover on this 4th Beta should read "smooth".

Fixed the chart with additions, corrected the front cover section of the 5th which had horrible cut-and-paste errors, removed flyleaf weight as too difficult to measure with accuracy.

I think we've got it all now.  I'd be interested in hearing where people think the line ought to be drawn.  Personally, at this point I'm thinking the 4th Beta is more similar to the 4th Alpha than the 5th, so that one's not difficult for me.  But while the 4th Gamma is more similar to a 5th than the 4th Alpha, and that's where I'd divide them "by the numbers" -- the cover and catalog pages are more compelling features.  I'm on the fence.

The 4th Beta strikes me as a run made due to having exhausted the stockpile, minor edits being made before print. 4th print all the way.

The 4th Gamma is a tough one. I'm under the impression that a 5th print was in the works from this, but this was rushed out before all edits were made. I suppose it could be considered a prototype 5th, but as an interim print, it might be more appropriate as a 4th.

Howdy All,


Looking through my MM's I have two that are very similar to a 4th Gamma but both have red endpapers and fly leaves and slightly different stitches. Here are their traits:

4th ?
Front Cover: Yellow-banner reads "ADVANCED D&D" and black outlined letters; Wizard logo; smooth textured
*Flyleafs: Red
Pages: smooth
*Stitching: 3/4" to 7/8"; 15 stitches
Rear Cover: ISBN
Spine: New spine
Copyright Page: "TM"; "4th Edition, August, 1979"; Jean Wells credit; "Distributed to the book trade in the United States by Random House.."; center justified "Inquiries..." lines; ISBN;
Giants: 19-25
Hydra: Smaller raised illustration
Vampire: "per round of immersion"
Page 111: No prices; DMG not listed as "Future Release"
Page 112: No prices; No prices next to STAR PROBE; No prices next to STAR EMPIRES; "send for our catalog."; "potpourri" Gencon ad


Futures Bright,

Paul