MM - 4th printing found with red end papers (news to grodog)
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Post Posted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 11:03 pm 
 

Front Cover
http://i882.photobucket.com/albums/ac29 ... 1255057208

FFEP
http://i882.photobucket.com/albums/ac29 ... 1255057276

Title Page
http://i882.photobucket.com/albums/ac29 ... 1255057329

Catalog Page
http://i882.photobucket.com/albums/ac29 ... 1255057365

Back FEP
http://i882.photobucket.com/albums/ac29 ... 1255057513

Back Cover
http://i882.photobucket.com/albums/ac29 ... 1255057552

Let me know if you need additional shots/info.

  

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Post Posted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 11:28 pm 
 

deimos3428 wrote:In light of this evidence, I move that the 4th Beta/Gamma be listed as 5th Alpha/Beta, with the original 5th now a 5th Gamma.  I see no other reasonable solution.


AHA! Vindication of my assertions!  :P   J/K

But seriously, folks. As per the comment on the 1st print MM description, Random House had always been the printer/distributor (unless I'm reading that incorrectly).

The inclusion of the "Distributed by" line reads to me as something the legal staff had a hand in. As for the PHB and DMG from that time frame, was the "Distributed by" line included on both of those within a month or two of the MM? That would tell me the mandate was on for a new print, and what you have just described above would fit within that scenario.

Ugh! Interim prints to meet demand make for messy record keeping.

  


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Post Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 12:50 am 
 

SimperingToad wrote:As per the comment on the 1st print MM description, Random House had always been the printer/distributor (unless I'm reading that incorrectly).

That might be the case, but there's no reason to assume RH was always the printer/distributor.

There is definitely a significant change in content, cover, paper and ink at the same time as the addition of the RH line.  All three books see this transformation within a month or thereabouts.

Now, going back full circle to page one of the thread:  Can the owners of this proposed new 5th Alpha/Beta tell us whether the "errata" is present/absent?  This may help confirm the ordering of the printings (or not).

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Post Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 6:00 am 
 

deimos3428 wrote:Now, going back full circle to page one of the thread:  Can the owners of this proposed new 5th Alpha/Beta tell us whether the "errata" is present/absent?  This may help confirm the ordering of the printings (or not).


In your post above, did you mean "4th Alpha/Beta"?

I went through all of the errata listed per the changes to the 4th printing
http://www.acaeum.com/library/errata_mm.html
and the "4th Beta (Red)" (the one in my lower photo) does have each item corrected.

  

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Post Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 8:01 am 
 

My "4th Beta" (5th Alpha/Beta?) also incorporates all of the errata listed there, with the exception of this item:

"Giant: The sentence about giant strength found in the introduction should read, "All giants are very strong, with strengths ranging from 19 to 24 as compared to humans." emphasis mine

In contrast, my "4th Beta" (5th Alpha/Beta) reads:

"All giants are very strong, with strengths ranging from 19 to 25 as compared to humans." emphasis mine

BUT, I also checked my 5th (later 5th, that is) for this sentence, and it ALSO states "25" as opposed to "24". Therefore I'm guessing this is simply an error in the MM errata section of the Acaeum, rather than a piece of errata included in The Dragon #35.

Easy enough to check! Getting my TD #35 now......

Okay, the errata in TD #35 reads exactly as the Acaeum MM errata page ("19 to 24"), so this either means this particular piece of errata was never incorporated into an actual printing, or it was done after my 5th print. Can someone check that? The latest printing I have is 5th.

  

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Post Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 8:32 am 
 

MetamorphosisSigma wrote:My "4th Beta" (5th Alpha/Beta?) also incorporates all of the errata listed there, with the exception of this item:

"Giant: The sentence about giant strength found in the introduction should read, "All giants are very strong, with strengths ranging from 19 to 24 as compared to humans." emphasis mine

In contrast, my "4th Beta" (5th Alpha/Beta) reads:

"All giants are very strong, with strengths ranging from 19 to 25 as compared to humans." emphasis mine

BUT, I also checked my 5th (later 5th, that is) for this sentence, and it ALSO states "25" as opposed to "24". Therefore I'm guessing this is simply an error in the MM errata section of the Acaeum, rather than a piece of errata included in The Dragon #35.

Easy enough to check! Getting my TD #35 now......

Okay, the errata in TD #35 reads exactly as the Acaeum MM errata page ("19 to 24"), so this either means this particular piece of errata was never incorporated into an actual printing, or it was done after my 5th print. Can someone check that? The latest printing I have is 5th.


I saw that, too, but just chalked it up to a typo on the Acaeum site. My later prints also mention "19-25".  Maybe the errata needs to be errata'd?

  


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Post Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 11:04 am 
 

MetamorphosisSigma wrote:My "4th Beta" (5th Alpha/Beta?) also incorporates all of the errata listed there, with the exception of this item:

I meant the Vampire errata specifically ("round" vs. "turn"), but I think you've discovered something new yet again.  Or perhaps I'm merely going batty.

"Giant: The sentence about giant strength found in the introduction should read, "All giants are very strong, with strengths ranging from 19 to 24 as compared to humans." emphasis mine

In contrast, my "4th Beta" (5th Alpha/Beta) reads:

"All giants are very strong, with strengths ranging from 19 to 25 as compared to humans." emphasis mine

Will look into it more tonight, to see where the number changes if somebody doesn't sort it out in the interim.  Definitely needs to be added to the MM errata page one way or other.  

What it states in Dragon 35 is correct; I do not know if it made it into the books or not.  Only Titans have 25 STR.

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Post Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 12:17 pm 
 

deimos3428 wrote:What it states in Dragon 35 is correct; I do not know if it made it into the books or not.  Only Titans have 25 STR.


Of course. I suppose maybe EGG was toying with the idea of listing Titans in with the giants at one point (since they are, kinda), then changed his mind and neglected to amend that sentence. Pure speculation on my part, naturally.

I wouldn't be surprised if that erratum didn't make it into an actual printing. Some of the PHB and UA errata never did either, IIRC.

EDIT: Oh, and yes, in my 5th Alpha/Beta the Vampire entry speaks of "rounds" after immersion.

  

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Post Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 12:42 pm 
 

deimos3428 wrote:4th Alpha (Red): Does not have right-justified prices on page 112, but does have "(booklet only $4.00)" after STAR PROBE description, and "(booklet only $5.50)" after STAR EMPIRES description.  Also states "send $2.00 for our catalog." in the last paragraph.  I am assuming it came first because it still has some prices.  I have one of these.


Adding potential confusion, here's what I have:

red - yes
4th edition - yes
Random House distrib - no
$4.00 - yes
$5.50 - yes
$2.00 - no, says "send for our catalog"
hydra - full picture
giant - 19 to 25
vampire - round
red/yellow inlay - no
stitch spacing - 7/8" to 1 1/4" (inconsistent), 10 stitches if I'm counting right


So that seems to be a match to 4th Alpha (Red) except for the $2.00 difference.

  

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Post Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 1:15 pm 
 

Yes, the vampire paragraph states losing 1/3 hit points per round of immersion and not per turn in that second (lower) book.

  


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Post Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 1:44 pm 
 

TheHistorian wrote:So that seems to be a match to 4th Alpha (Red) except for the $2.00 difference.

Argh!  I think this may be an error on my part; I will confirm tonight if the 4th Alpha (my copy, anyway...) has this or not.

Going back to this earlier post, I have further questions regarding potpourri for all you folks with "new" printing variants, and also if the DMG is listed as a future release or not on pg 111:

See: viewtopic.php?p=43135&highlight=send+catalog#43135

Do note that post is over three years old, and I'm comparing the 3rd with a 4th (Alpha).

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Post Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 7:13 pm 
 

deimos3428 wrote:Going back to this earlier post, I have further questions regarding potpourri for all you folks with "new" printing variants, and also if the DMG is listed as a future release or not on pg 111


Mine does not list the DMG as a future release, pg 111
Image

Also, the Vampire pg 99
Image

  

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Post Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 7:42 pm 
 

Using current printing rather than proposed:

3rd Print (not 3rd+)
Giants: strength from 21-30
Vampires: 3 turns
DMG: future release
Catalog: $2

4th Red
Giants: 19-25
Vampires: 3 melee rounds
DMG: available
Catalog: free (doesn't say it's free, though)

4th White
Giants: 19-25
Vampires: 3 melee rounds
DMG: available
Catalog: free (doesn't say it's free, though)

5th
Giants: 19-25
Vampires: 3 melee rounds
DMG: available
Catalog: free (and says free)

EDIT: I made error in 3rd print vampire info


Last edited by SimperingToad on Sat Oct 10, 2009 1:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
  

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Post Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 8:24 pm 
 

deimos3428 wrote:Argh!  I think this may be an error on my part; I will confirm tonight if the 4th Alpha (my copy, anyway...) has this or not.


Heh - sorry to possibly confuse...

Checked the DMG coming soon situation on pg 111.  My copy lists the DMG as the other books are, NOT as a "coming soon", so that seems to agree with what others are saying.

  


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Post Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 9:13 pm 
 

Ok, on the Giant strength passage, I went back to the beginning.  The 1st through 3rd+ read:

"...with strengths ranging from 21 to 30..." 8O

Later printings read (and it was never further corrected in the book)

"...with strengths ranging from 19 to 25..."

and the official errata in Dragon #35 reads

"...with strengths ranging from 19 to 24..."

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Post Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 9:17 pm 
 

deimos3428 wrote:Argh!  I think this may be an error on my part; I will confirm tonight if the 4th Alpha (my copy, anyway...) has this or not.


I was in error, and will correct the chart.  The "4th Alpha" does not state $2.00 (or free).  TheHistorian, I believe you have a 4th Alpha.

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Post Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 10:43 pm 
 

My (hopefully) comprehensive list of printing notes from the 3rd Plus through 5th.  Asterisks indicate a change from the immediately previous printing, question marks mean I'm not sure.  NEW: Plus marks indicate a change since the 4th Alpha, but not different from the immediately previous printing, to help gauge cumulative change.  If you note any errors, let me know.

3rd Plus
*Front Cover: *Yellow-banner reads "ADVANCED D&D"; *black outlined letters; Wizard logo; rough textured
Flyleafs: Red
Pages: smooth
*Stitching: approx 5/8", 17 or 18 stitches
Rear Cover: No ISBN
Spine: Early red-letter version; wizard logo
Copyright Page:  (R), "3rd Edition, December 1978"; full justified "Inquiries..." lines;
Giants: 21-30
Hydra: Larger picture
Vampire: "per turn of immersion"
Page 111: right-justified prices; DMG listed as "Future Release"
Page 112: right-justified prices; "booklet only $4.00" STAR PROBE; "booklet only $5.50" STAR EMPIRES; "send $2.00 for our catalog."; "potpourri" Gencon ad

-------------------------------------------------------
4th Alpha
Front Cover: Yellow-banner reads "ADVANCED D&D"; black outlined letters; Wizard logo; rough textured
Flyleafs: Red
Pages: smooth
*Stitching: *approx 1", 11 or 12 stitches
*Rear Cover: *ISBN
*Spine: *New, completely updated spine
*Copyright Page: *"TM"; *"4th Edition, August, 1979"; *added Jean Wells credit; *center justified "Inquiries..." lines; *ISBN added; *Giants: *19-25
Hydra: Larger picture
Vampire: *"per round of immersion"
*Page 111: *No prices; *DMG not listed as "Future Release"
*Page 112: *No prices; "booklet only $4.00" STAR PROBE; "booklet only $5.50" STAR EMPIRES; *"send for our catalog."; "potpourri" Gencon ad

-------------------------------------------------------
4th Beta
*Front Cover: Yellow-banner reads "ADVANCED D&D"; black outlined letters; Wizard logo; *smooth textured
Flyleafs: Red
Pages: smooth
*Stitching: *approx 3/4", 16 to 18 stitches
Rear Cover: ISBN
Spine: New spine
*Copyright Page: "TM"; "4th Edition, August, 1979"; Jean Wells credit; *"Distributed to the book trade in the United States by Random House.."; center justified "Inquiries..." lines;
Giants: 19-25
*Hydra: *Smaller raised illustration
Vampire: "per round of immersion"
Page 111: No prices; DMG not listed as "Future Release"
*Page 112: No prices; *No prices next to STAR PROBE; *No prices next to STAR EMPIRES; "send for our catalog."; "potpourri" Gencon ad

-------------------------------------------------------
4th Gamma
+Front Cover: Yellow-banner reads "ADVANCED D&D" and black outlined letters; Wizard logo; +smooth textured
*Flyleafs: White
Pages: smooth
*Stitching: *approx 7/8", 15 stitches
Rear Cover: ISBN
Spine: New spine
+Copyright Page: "TM"; "4th Edition, August, 1979"; Jean Wells credit; +"Distributed to the book trade in the United States by Random House.."; center justified "Inquiries..." lines; ISBN;
Giants: 19-25
+Hydra: +Smaller raised illustration
Vampire: "per round of immersion"
Page 111: No prices; DMG not listed as "Future Release"
+Page 112: No prices; +No prices next to STAR PROBE; +No prices next to STAR EMPIRES; "send for our catalog."; "potpourri" Gencon ad

-------------------------------------------------------
5th
*Front Cover: *Yellow-banner reads "ADVANCED D&D" but no outlined letters; *TM after banner text; Wizard logo; *smooth textured
+Flyleafs: White
*Pages: *rough
*Stitching: *approx 1 1/4", *8 or 9 stitches
Rear Cover: ISBN
Spine: New spine
+Copyright Page: "TM"; "4th Edition, August, 1979"; Jean Wells credit; +"Distributed to the book trade in the United States by Random House.."; center justified "Inquiries..." lines; ISBN;
Giants: 19-25
+Hydra: +Smaller raised illustration
Vampire: "per round of immersion"
*Page 111: *Overhauled catalog
*Page 112: *Overhauled catalog; *"send for our free catalog."; *"potpourri" line removed from Gencon ad

-------------------------------------------------------

As you can see, there are sweeping changes between the 3rd Plus and the 4th Alpha.  The missing answers to the 4th Gamma will help determine where to draw the line between the 4ths and the 5ths.  (Wherever the most change occurs makes sense.)  The differences between the 4th Alpha/Beta are fairly minor, only a stitching change, the smaller hydra, and the removal of the price notes for STAR PROBE/STAR EMPIRE.

Good work, everyone, and by all means please keep that info coming and I'll update as required.


Last edited by deimos3428 on Tue Oct 13, 2009 3:32 pm, edited 18 times in total.
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Post Posted: Sat Oct 10, 2009 2:24 am 
 

deimos3428 wrote:My (hopefully) comprehensive list of printing notes from the 3rd Plus through 5th.  Asterisks indicate a change from the immediately previous printing, question marks mean I'm not sure.  If you note any errors, let me know.

4th Gamma
?Front Cover: ?Yellow-banner reads "ADVANCED D&D" and black outlined letters???; Wizard logo; *smooth textured??? correct
?Flyleafs: White, *lighter paper weight??? probably correct, though I don't think much lighter - very hard to tell
?Pages: *rough??? smooth paper
*Stitching: *approx 1", 11 or 12 stitches exactly 7/8"; 13 stitches, the last one is 3/4"
Rear Cover: ISBN correct
Spine: New spine correct
*Copyright Page: "TM"; "4th Edition, August, 1979"; Jean Wells credit;  *"Distributed to the book trade in the United States by Random House.."; center justified "Inquiries..." lines; ISBN; all correct
Giants: 19-25 correct
Hydra: Smaller raised illustration correct
Vampire: "per round of immersion" correct
Page 111: No prices; DMG not listed as "Future Release" correct, only The Dragon has prices
Page 112: No prices; No prices next to STAR PROBE; No prices next to STAR EMPIRES; "send for our catalog."; "potpourri" Gencon ad correct

-------------------------------------------------------
5th
Front Cover: *Yellow-banner reads "ADVANCED D&D" and black outlined letters???; Wizard logo; *smooth textured no black outline, plus TM added
?Flyleafs: White, *lighter paper weight see 4th Gamma
?Pages: *rough correct
*Stitching: *approx 1 1/4", *8 or 9 stitches appears to be correct; the binding is very tight, so it's hard to tell with certainty
Rear Cover: ISBN
Spine: New spine
Copyright Page: "TM"; "4th Edition, August, 1979"; Jean Wells credit; "Distributed to the book trade in the United States by Random House.."; center justified "Inquiries..." lines; ISBN;
Giants: 19-25
Hydra: Smaller raised illustration
Vampire: "per round of immersion"
Page 111: *Overhauled catalog
*Page 112: *Overhauled catalog; *"send for our free catalog."; *"potpourri" line removed from Gencon ad


See bolded notes. I wouldn't put too much stock into the smooth vs. rough text paper as a divider. There are too many things which can affect that decision, not the least of which is having to meet a deadline, so one uses what is at hand rather than waiting a day or two for a shipment of paper. I've seen that one all too often in the last few years. It's possible, but it could also just be a victim of circumstance.

  

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Post Posted: Sat Oct 10, 2009 1:38 pm 
 

deimos3428 wrote:-------------------------------------------------------
4th Beta
Front Cover: Yellow-banner reads "ADVANCED D&D"; black outlined letters; Wizard logo; rough textured
Flyleafs: Red, heavy paper weight
Pages: smooth
*Stitching: *approx 5/8", 17 or 18 stitches
Rear Cover: ISBN
Spine: New spine
Copyright Page: "TM"; "4th Edition, August, 1979"; Jean Wells credit; center justified "Inquiries..." lines; ISBN;
Giants: 19-25
*Hydra: *Smaller raised illustration
Vampire: "per round of immersion"
Page 111: No prices; DMG not listed as "Future Release"
*Page 112: No prices; *No prices next to STAR PROBE; *No prices next to STAR EMPIRES; "send for our catalog."; "potpourri" Gencon ad

-------------------------------------------------------


I think the texture for the cover on this 4th Beta should read "smooth".

  


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Post Posted: Sat Oct 10, 2009 3:44 pm 
 

SimperingToad wrote:See bolded notes. I wouldn't put too much stock into the smooth vs. rough text paper as a divider. There are too many things which can affect that decision, not the least of which is having to meet a deadline, so one uses what is at hand rather than waiting a day or two for a shipment of paper. I've seen that one all too often in the last few years. It's possible, but it could also just be a victim of circumstance.

Well, I have to disagree; it's a very important change, demonstrating the continuous cheapening of the materials used over time.  Smooth/rough is obviously a relative distinction, but the difference in paper texture is quite evident between a 4th Alpha (and earlier) and a 5th (and thereafter).  It's not a temporary change.

Same goes for the cover "smoothness".  You can quite literally feel and/or hear the difference between a 3rd through 4th Alpha and a 5th+ -- and with practice, you can identify these things blindfolded.  (Incidentally, the 1st/2nd printings have an even rougher canvas-like texture.)  

I'm simply trying to determine which of the two types the 4th beta and 4th gamma have, but any subjective determination is meaningless without comparing to adjacent printings.  Depending on whether they're like the 4th Alpha or a 5th, that aids in making a decision on how to place them.

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