MM - 4th printing found with red end papers (news to grodog)
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Post Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 12:29 am 
 

I found a 4th printing copy of the MM with red end papers last night, which I didn't previously know existed, since my 4th MM is white end papers. I initially thought that I had a discovery to report, given that I "knew" that all 4ths sported white end-papers, but, alas, after consulting the MM page it seems that the 4th printing can have either.

I'm curious as to why the MM isn't broken down further for the printings between these two versions on the MM page, since the presence of non-white end-papers has clearly been a printing distinction for the PHB and DMG. I'm also curious about why/how this printing is rarer, since, again, it's the only one I've ever known (so therefore it must be common, right? :D ).

edit:  looks like my original "4th" is probably a 5th printing, but I won't have it in front of me to check the details until I return from CA.


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Post Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 10:18 am 
 

Howdy Allan,


Hey, if it is a 4th print per the Acaeum, check to see if the prices are listed in the catalog. Thanks!


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Post Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 10:33 am 
 

grodog wrote:I found a 4th printing copy of the MM with red end papers last night, which I didn't previously know existed, since my 4th MM is white end papers. I initially thought that I had a discovery to report, given that I "knew" that all 4ths sported white end-papers, but, alas, after consulting the MM page it seems that the 4th printing can have either.

I'm curious as to why the MM isn't broken down further for the printings between these two versions on the MM page, since the presence of non-white end-papers has clearly been a printing distinction for the PHB and DMG. I'm also curious about why/how this printing is rarer, since, again, it's the only one I've ever known (so therefore it must be common, right? :D ).

edit: looks like my original "4th" is probably a 5th printing, but I won't have it in front of me to check the details until I return from CA.

There is much confusion there, I think, because of the "3rd+" print. :?

I'd first "define" the 4th as a printing with all of the following:

1. yellow lettering on the cover
2. black highlights on "Advanced D&D", no "TM"
3. the words "4th Edition" on the copyright page

Can you confirm you're not looking at a 3rd+ (which is known to have red flyleaves):

1. yellow lettering on the cover
2. black highlights on "Advanced D&D", no "TM"
3. the words "3rd Edition" on the copyright page

If not, you might be the first person to positively verify that the red-flyleaf version of the 4th exists, and that's good news.  (It could be that previous sightings were actually 3rd+ and mis-reported, and it doesn't exist...I'm skeptical.)

As for the 5th, I made that mistake too.  :oops:

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Post Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 11:25 am 
 

I have both of the 4th prints. One with white and one with red flyleaves.

Hey, if it is a 4th print per the Acaeum, check to see if the prices are listed in the catalog.


Neither copy has prices on the catalog.

If you need any more info let me know.

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Post Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 11:44 am 
 

deimos3428 wrote:
grodog wrote:I found a 4th printing copy of the MM with red end papers last night, which I didn't previously know existed, since my 4th MM is white end papers. I initially thought that I had a discovery to report, given that I "knew" that all 4ths sported white end-papers, but, alas, after consulting the MM page it seems that the 4th printing can have either.

I'm curious as to why the MM isn't broken down further for the printings between these two versions on the MM page, since the presence of non-white end-papers has clearly been a printing distinction for the PHB and DMG. I'm also curious about why/how this printing is rarer, since, again, it's the only one I've ever known (so therefore it must be common, right? :D ).

edit: looks like my original "4th" is probably a 5th printing, but I won't have it in front of me to check the details until I return from CA.

There is much confusion there, I think, because of the "3rd+" print. :?

I'd first "define" the 4th as a printing with all of the following:

1. yellow lettering on the cover
2. black highlights on "Advanced D&D", no "TM"
3. the words "4th Edition" on the copyright page

Can you confirm you're not looking at a 3rd+ (which is known to have red flyleaves):

1. yellow lettering on the cover
2. black highlights on "Advanced D&D", no "TM"
3. the words "3rd Edition" on the copyright page

If not, you might be the first person to positively verify that the red-flyleaf version of the 4th exists, and that's good news. (It could be that previous sightings were actually 3rd+ and mis-reported, and it doesn't exist...I'm skeptical.)

As for the 5th, I made that mistake too. :oops:


I also have a 4th with red endpapers, just as you describe.  I've actually had another as well but sold it awhile back, I didn't realize there was anything special about them, whoops.

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Post Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 12:10 pm 
 

I have a 4th with red flyleaves too, I was just going to dump it......  8O

  

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Post Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 12:54 pm 
 

must be fairly common because I have 2 of em' also  :?

  


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Post Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 2:55 pm 
 

Badmike wrote:I also have a 4th with red endpapers, just as you describe. I've actually had another as well but sold it awhile back, I didn't realize there was anything special about them, whoops.

RWilson wrote:I have a 4th with red flyleaves too, I was just going to dump it......

Daimajin wrote:must be fairly common because I have 2 of em' also  

Ok, I'm convinced they exist.   :)

I don't think that they're particularly special, but I wanted to make sure we were meticulously documenting the various prints and not making errors.  

The only known difference between the 3rd+/4th is the number printed on the copyright page, both seem to have either red or white flyleaves.  :?  Perhaps Paul can find another difference by analyzing the catalog page...

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Post Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 3:24 pm 
 

Howdy,


I believe there is a 4th print just prior to the one listed as a 4th print on the Acaeum. This 4th "minus" print should have the errata for the vampire included and the prices listed in the back catalog. I have seen a number of 4th prints and the answers always come back "has errata" and "does not have prices".

The 2nd Alpha DMG I own has the pages from the MM which include the errata for the vampire included and the prices listed in the back catalog.


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Post Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 3:42 pm 
 

My 3+ has the prices for the back catalog by no Vampire errata.

Have no idea if this helps.

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Post Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 4:33 pm 
 

Howdy,


Right!

3rd+ does not have errata but does have prices
4th-  has errata and has prices (according to my DMG 2nd Alpha)
4th   has errata and does not have prices

I don't know if the 4th- exists but there were printing plates for it in early August of 1979.


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Post Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 9:17 pm 
 

Turns out I have both a 3rd and a 4th, but no 3rd+.   :?

In comparing them, besides the prices/vampire errata:

On pg. 111:  The 3rd lists the DMG as a future release, the 4th does not.  

On pg. 112:  In the last paragraph before the Gen Con ad, the 3rd has the price $2.00.  The 4th omits this, making for a somewhat puzzling sentence:

"...For a complete listing of the entire line of TSR games and rules, send ($2.00) for our catalog."

Both 3rd & 4th contain the infamous "potpourri" line of the Gen Con ad as well, which is omitted in 5th and later prints.

I'd be interested in hearing what the 3rd+ has on those points, and also the DMG 2nd Alpha (or 4th-, if it exists!).

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Post Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 10:37 pm 
 

The 3rd + print matches the 3rd print on the points you listed deimos.

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Post Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 10:59 pm 
 

Here is a 3rd + and its in Canada Deimos :D



http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... %3AIT&rd=1



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Post Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 11:23 pm 
 

Howdy,


deimos3428 wrote:Turns out I have both a 3rd and a 4th, but no 3rd+.  :?

In comparing them, besides the prices/vampire errata:

On pg. 111: The 3rd lists the DMG as a future release, the 4th does not.

On pg. 112: In the last paragraph before the Gen Con ad, the 3rd has the price $2.00. The 4th omits this, making for a somewhat puzzling sentence:

"...For a complete listing of the entire line of TSR games and rules, send ($2.00) for our catalog."

Both 3rd & 4th contain the infamous "potpourri" line of the Gen Con ad as well, which is omitted in 5th and later prints.

I'd be interested in hearing what the 3rd+ has on those points, and also the DMG 2nd Alpha (or 4th-, if it exists!).


Only page 111 of the MM catalog is found in the DMG2A. It does list the DMG as a "Future Release". Thus,

As far as this and your other points, the catalog is the same in the 3rd, 3rd+, and the DMG2A (MM 4th-).


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Post Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 12:57 am 
 

Today, I finally opened up my boxes shipped from CA, which included my loot from my trip two+ weeks ago, and can now speak to these various requests for clarification. Thanks for your collective patience :D

deimos3428 wrote:
grodog wrote:I found a 4th printing copy of the MM with red end papers last night, which I didn't previously know existed, since my 4th MM is white end papers. I initially thought that I had a discovery to report, given that I "knew" that all 4ths sported white end-papers, but, alas, after consulting the MM page it seems that the 4th printing can have either.

[snip]

edit: looks like my original "4th" is probably a 5th printing, but I won't have it in front of me to check the details until I return from CA.

There is much confusion there, I think, because of the "3rd+" print. :?

I'd first "define" the 4th as a printing with all of the following:

1. yellow lettering on the cover
2. black highlights on "Advanced D&D", no "TM"
3. the words "4th Edition" on the copyright page


Check, on all three.

deimos3428 wrote:Can you confirm you're not looking at a 3rd+ (which is known to have red flyleaves):

1. yellow lettering on the cover
2. black highlights on "Advanced D&D", no "TM"
3. the words "3rd Edition" on the copyright page


Correct, on all counts.

Now, on to the additional comments:

The Collector's Trove wrote:
deimos3428 wrote:Turns out I have both a 3rd and a 4th, but no 3rd+. :?

In comparing them, besides the prices/vampire errata:

On pg. 111: The 3rd lists the DMG as a future release, the 4th does not.

On pg. 112: In the last paragraph before the Gen Con ad, the 3rd has the price $2.00. The 4th omits this, making for a somewhat puzzling sentence:

"...For a complete listing of the entire line of TSR games and rules, send ($2.00) for our catalog."

Both 3rd & 4th contain the infamous "potpourri" line of the Gen Con ad as well, which is omitted in 5th and later prints.

I'd be interested in hearing what the 3rd+ has on those points, and also the DMG 2nd Alpha (or 4th-, if it exists!).


Only page 111 of the MM catalog is found in the DMG2A. It does list the DMG as a "Future Release". Thus,

As far as this and your other points, the catalog is the same in the 3rd, 3rd+, and the DMG2A (MM 4th-).


On my newly-found 4th with red endpapers copy, I find:

  • I'm not intimately familiar with the Vampire errata, and referred to http://www.acaeum.com/Library/ErrataMM.html for specifics:

    MM errata from TD 35 wrote:Correction 99A: Corrected in Fourth print

    Vampire: In the seventh paragraph describing how a vampire may be slain, the third sentence should read, "The vampire loses one‑third of its hit points per round of immersion."


    Both my 5th print (my original MM from years past, well-marked with grodog notes), and the 4th print with red fly leaves from CA contain the vampire errata. Neither has the price list entries for the catalog items.

    Just to further complicate, things, however, my 3rd printing MM does include the Vampire errata, and does list prices, and lists the DMG as a future release :/
  • p 111 - The DMG is a future release. No prices.
  • p 112 - The potpourri line is present in the red fly leaf, not in my 5th.

So, now I'm not sure whether there may be two or possibly three additional MM printings as yet uncataloged??? Working chronologically, they would be:

  • my 3rd-+ (just before 3rd+), which does include the vampire errata (which isn't supposed to be present until the 4th printings), but otherwise matches a 3rd
  • Paul's 4th- (per the DMG2A inserted MM price list page)
  • my 4th with red flypapers; or is this just a standard 4th print, at this point---I've lost track???


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Post Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 1:00 pm 
 

grodog wrote:Just to further complicate, things, however, my 3rd printing MM does include the Vampire errata, and does list prices, and lists the DMG as a future release :/

[*]p 111 - The DMG is a future release. No prices.
[*]p 112 - The potpourri line is present in the red fly leaf, not in my 5th.
[/list]

So, now I'm not sure whether there may be two or possibly three additional MM printings as yet uncataloged??? Working chronologically, they would be:

  • my 3rd-+ (just before 3rd+), which does include the vampire errata (which isn't supposed to be present until the 4th printings), but otherwise matches a 3rd
  • Paul's 4th- (per the DMG2A inserted MM price list page)
  • my 4th with red flypapers; or is this just a standard 4th print, at this point---I've lost track???

You haven't complicated things at all, I think you've just found something very, very important.  :wink:

First, the "4th" with red flyleaves, nevermind that.  My mistake.  4th comes in both red and white versions, we'll never know for certain which one came first but I would assume red.  Was very embarrased that I suggested they might not exist and then when home and found one on my shelf!  :)

Much more interesting is your 3rd print.  I believe it is actually after the 3rd+, which does not have the errata, but before the 4th, which does.  

If this is correct, I think is the "4th-" that Paul was describing!  This print was theorized from the DMG2A, which had MM pages in it.  There was no reason to assume it belonged with the 4ths, rather than the 3rds, other than that it was after the 3rd+.  So I'd consider it to be a "3rd Gamma", or something, rather than a "4th-", if it states "3rd Edition" on the copyright page.

Anyway, very interesting.  Please confirm that I'm understanding it right.

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Post Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 3:18 pm 
 

Tyson, I think you may have got it straight, although I'm sure that I don't now :D

I think it would be worthwhile to run through the potential criteria for the 4th- again---and to confirm that the vampire errata content listed on the site is correct, since so much hinges on that.  Are there any other potentially distinguishing features that would be worth checking?


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Post Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 3:34 pm 
 

grodog wrote:Tyson, I think you may have got it straight, although I'm sure that I don't now :D

I think it would be worthwhile to run through the potential criteria for the 4th- again---and to confirm that the vampire errata content listed on the site is correct, since so much hinges on that. Are there any other potentially distinguishing features that would be worth checking?

Vampire errata:  Simply the change from "turn" to "round" in that particular line.

To summarize thus far:

3rd: does not have errata ("turn") but does have prices, "3rd edition", red-lettered cover
3rd+: does not have errata ("turn") but does have prices, "3rd edition", yellow-lettered cover
4th-:  has errata ("round") and has prices (according to the DMG 2nd Alpha) *
4th:  has errata ("round") and does not have prices, "4th edition", yellow-lettered cover.

* There's no knowledge of which cover and copyright page this volume has, yet.  I'm hoping you can tell us that, if indeed your copy states ("round") and has prices on the catalog page.  It might be the case that the cover and content evolved under different timelines, but I hope not, because that confuses things a lot.

There may well be other differences, but until we find a "none of the above", this should be sufficient to categorize any print.

(Paul and others, correct me if I've gone horribly wrong here...I'm working with what I have.)

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Post Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 3:54 pm 
 

Howdy,


You are spot on!


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