Poll:  Rarity of the Rares
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Post Posted: Sat Jan 07, 2006 2:31 pm 
 

Hmmm, these may be too granular and I don't really want to push my own finds but I've got to suggest them since they are level 5 rares... how about 1st print Daystar Rahasia (only one known copy) or 1st print Character Archaic (only one known copy).

  


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Post Posted: Sat Jan 07, 2006 3:00 pm 
 

bclarkie wrote:BTW, why are we not including 1st print Chainmails? I have yet to ever see one sold publically and know of only one that has changed hands privately?




Agreed.  I know of only one, and that changed hands off ebay.  It definitely deserves a place among the rarest.



What about the ltd- and DM-copies of Inverness and Tamo?  Has anyone ever seen one of those up on ebay?

  


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Post Posted: Sat Jan 07, 2006 3:47 pm 
 

*continues to fail to dodge the thread*



afoolandhis$ wrote:What about the ltd- and DM-copies of Inverness and Tamo? Has anyone ever seen one of those up on ebay?

Good suggestion, although I'd personally be inclined to call those variants, despite the separate listing on The Acaeum.
Just like the un-price-altered (= staff/printer's copies-only?) T1st Greyhawk, the primary "distinguishing feature" of those tournies is but a pen mark, rather than a separate printing. (Although the Greyhawk is also cut to a different size from my other T1st- often a "good sign" with early TSR material).

Jeff's 1st print Rahasia and 1st print Character Archaic (both non-TSR) are far more significant, IMHO. Both of those have at least one internal page that is different from their later respective print runs.

afoolandhis$ wrote:
bclarkie wrote:BTW, why are we not including 1st print Chainmails? I have yet to ever see one sold publically and know of only one that has changed hands privately?

Agreed. I know of only one, and that changed hands off ebay. It definitely deserves a place among the rarest.


I know there are others besides that which Scott picked up from Frank, via Aneoth, and the copy here.

It's just that they're not appearing on eBay! :)



viewtopic.php?p=30321&highlight=#30321

viewtopic.php?p=16888&highlight=#16888



And on the granularity/variant issue, again, the presumed "early" 1st print OD&D books are only known from two copies, thus far (first of the two URLs above, plus confirmation from IO further down in that thread).

  


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Post Posted: Sat Jan 07, 2006 4:01 pm 
 

harami2000 wrote: I know there are others besides that which Scott picked up from Frank, via Aneoth, and the copy here.
It's just that they're not appearing on eBay! :)

viewtopic.php?p=30321&highlight=#30321
viewtopic.php?p=16888&highlight=#16888


Ok, aside from the one you have and the one that Scott now has how many other are out there that you know of(no need to name names  :) )?


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Post Posted: Sat Jan 07, 2006 4:04 pm 
 

bclarkie wrote:Ok, aside from the one you have and the one that Scott now has how many other are out there that you know of(no need to name names :) )?

Low single figures ;)

Should be fairly obvious who some of those owners are! :D

  


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Post Posted: Sat Jan 07, 2006 6:22 pm 
 

harami2000 wrote:
bclarkie wrote:Ok, aside from the one you have and the one that Scott now has how many other are out there that you know of(no need to name names :) )?

Low single figures ;)

Should be fairly obvious who some of those owners are! :D


That would be 4 at most, right?  Five would be mid-single figures.

  

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Post Posted: Sat Jan 07, 2006 6:29 pm 
 

1-3 Low
4-6 Mid
7-9 High


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Post Posted: Sat Jan 07, 2006 6:31 pm 
 

afoolandhis$ wrote:
harami2000 wrote:
bclarkie wrote:Ok, aside from the one you have and the one that Scott now has how many other are out there that you know of(no need to name names :) )?

Low single figures ;)
Should be fairly obvious who some of those owners are! :D

That would be 4 at most, right? Five would be mid-single figures.

Less than that! :)
But I was only asking around... haven't seen any scans/pics, so I wouldn't know about their condition (sans-SW one would presume! :P).

In the mean time, I'll take any $5,000 BIN offers! :lol:


[ed.] *nods to Frank*

  


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Post Posted: Sat Jan 07, 2006 8:23 pm 
 

It's a tough call to decide which mass-produced D&D related item is the rarest in terms of survival, and it's an even tougher call to be objective, owning some of the things we're talking about. It seems to me that the list must begin and end with those items of which only one is known to exist, and then two and then three.  Any more than that would seem to argue against inclusion.  That said . . .

As for a list to act as a starting point, if I could cherry-pick the collections of the world, here's what I would choose (based on rarity)

1st edition Chainmail
1st print Dwarven Glory with Room Key
1st print Dwarven Glory w/o Room Key (still makes it)
R-series prepubs (take your pick, but R7-10 probably the rarest)
DM/Staff/Design/Complementary copies for GT and LT
1st print Greyhawk uncorrected
pre-pub 1st Woody
1st print Woody (still makes it)
1st print Rahasia
1st print Pharaoh (may only be one)
1st print Character Archaic
1st POTVQ (black folder)
Domesday Book
Strategic Preview
Jade Hare w/cover

and to show that 1st isn't everything with regard to rarity:

2nd edition Chainmail
3rd POTVQ (castle cover)
The Greyhawk Woody (3rd Woody with Greyhawk Reference Sheets, 2nd Greyhawk, circa July 1975)
10 Anniversary Collector's Set
foreign editions of D&D stuff, like the Japanese modules in particular

There are some honorable mentions for rarity, but since there are easily more than ten they really don't belong (Fazzle, ST1, 2nd Rahasia).

  


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Post Posted: Sat Jan 07, 2006 8:53 pm 
 

Pretty good list, I'd say, tfm. Thank you!

=

How about any other complete early TSR Character Sheet pads? Hardly a huge number of those around, I'd've thought.
(Wee Warriors loose homebrew sheets don't count!)

Dragon Dice? :lol:

(And I'd still put in those TSR-UK Hobby Newsletters since they are in a recognised numbering sequence with the PANs, PABs & Bohemian Earspoons. Zero copies known is pretty darned rare in my book :))

=
slight [digression]
tfm wrote:pre-pub 1st Woody

...is one that still intrigues me. And I'm awaiting input from Paul on that other set, too...

However;
http://forums.gencon.com/pr.aspx?f=29&m=165
"One year we stayed until they closed out the auction and one of the last things bid was an original D&D box set. Frank Mentzer went through the history; apparently this was the personal copy of a very early TSR employee. The box didn't even have the cover sheet attached; it was loose. This was because the first sets were put together by hand in the basement and the cover sheet was glued on by hand. Also in th box was a flyer for GEN CON 2 or 3. It went for, like, $3000."

Is that a typo? The price certainly looks like one :?
i.e. was there a loose cover sheet with that set, just inserted loose?

And am still confused as to whether that is the pre-pub listed on the site... Further, I thought the employee associated with that copy didn't join until 1975.

If it wasn't for Paul turning up yet another one, I'd be even less sure as to how significant a missing label actually was.
(And I'd still like to compare the believed-early 1st/late 1sts with those 1st in those stated pre-pubs (two or three)).

[/digression] : anyhow...

add?;
Copy of original D&D ms., as circulated by EGG. :D
(one copy seen, only?)

  

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Post Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2006 11:34 am 
 

Now that I think about it, the R4 prepub that I sold to Stormber last year is probably unique.


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Post Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2006 1:06 pm 
 

harami2000 wrote:I'd still put in those TSR-UK Hobby Newsletters...


I have some of the D&D PA Newsletters. I guess I should scan & submit some for ID purposes.

...original D&D box set... "this was the personal copy of a very early TSR employee. Also in the box was a flyer for GEN CON 2 or 3. It went for, like, $3000." Is that a typo? was there a loose cover sheet with that set, just inserted loose?


THAT again.  :roll:  It was a standard brownbox but without any stick-on cover/side pieces. The cover sheet mighta been in the box, maybe not; I don't recall. And iirc the booklets were not 1st prints. I think this piece belonged to Tom Wham.

The 3k price cited is wrong, but it'd be rough trying to dig out that record; it's in the old and nearly unrecoverable data from TSR's anemic computer system used at the GenCon auction circa 1987-92. (otoh, I know where that data is still stored...) I stand firmly by my assessment that it was NOT EVER a 'production run', but merely a leftover. otoh, I've never seen another brownbox sans stick-ons, and that alone holds value.

*

Some talk about Domesday books... I think I have The Last Domesday on mimeograph masters, the one that was never distributed. Got it from Rob Kuntz back in the '80s. Maybe that also should be scanned and recorded for Posterity...


Y'know, some of this old junk in my archives doesn't hold any great sentimental value for me. Maybe I should sell some.

F

  

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Post Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2006 3:43 pm 
 

ExTSR wrote:Y'know, some of this old junk in my archives doesn't hold any great sentimental value for me. Maybe I should sell some.

F


you shouldnt say things like that frank...it isnt even funny :)

do you realise the panic you cause amongst this lot with comments like that :D

Al



  

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Post Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2006 4:46 pm 
 

Well, I'm serious. Oughta wait a few weeks for the post-holiday cashflows to rebuild, I'm sure.

I'll be sure to let y'all know if/when I do sell something. Gotta drive 5 hours to get to my stash, so that's a scheduling/time thing... but I'll dig around with an eye toward what collectors would really want vs old junk I don't particularly care about.

  

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Post Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2006 5:55 pm 
 

ExTSR wrote:Well, I'm serious. Oughta wait a few weeks for the post-holiday cashflows to rebuild, I'm sure.

I'll be sure to let y'all know if/when I do sell something. Gotta drive 5 hours to get to my stash, so that's a scheduling/time thing... but I'll dig around with an eye toward what collectors would really want vs old junk I don't particularly care about.


i dont think it matters what it is frank - this lot will be all over it like a bad rash - literally :)

nobody denying it i see :D



  


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Post Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2006 1:02 pm 
 

Many thanks for the in-depth reply, Frank. Apologies for the delayed response: just back again.

ExTSR wrote:
harami2000 wrote:I'd still put in those TSR-UK Hobby Newsletters...

I have some of the D&D PA Newsletters. I guess I should scan & submit some for ID purposes.

:) The PANs are elusive enough as it is. I managed to fluke putting together a complete set of those, but would be a struggle unless they all came up at once.
The TSR-UK Hobby Newsletters pre-dated those. Official publications, even though I suspect they were done off Don Turnbull's own back :)
(Have seen some of his early flyers re. hobby meets at "The Mill" and those have a refreshingly low key tone, so would expect something of that ilk for the period).

ExTSR wrote:
...original D&D box set... "this was the personal copy of a very early TSR employee. Also in the box was a flyer for GEN CON 2 or 3. It went for, like, $3000." Is that a typo? was there a loose cover sheet with that set, just inserted loose?
...
And am still confused as to whether that is the pre-pub listed on the site... Further, I thought the employee associated with that copy didn't join until 1975.


THAT again. :roll: It was a standard brownbox but without any stick-on cover/side pieces. The cover sheet mighta been in the box, maybe not; I don't recall. And iirc the booklets were not 1st prints. I think this piece belonged to Tom Wham.

Ah.. That's what I was worried about.

Tom joined Guidon before TSR (general note to the board that, Frank :)). Don't know about his date into TSR.
However, if that was actually another employee who joined in 1975 (as I understand), it's the same ball-game with regards the cover sheet and "pre-pub" status I'd've thought.
However, unless the owner(s) break cover and/or discuss with Scott, there's not much more I can say.
*
(Which is why I was also waiting for Paul's input on that other labelless box to check to see whether the books inside conform to what I still think was an early 1st print release (different size books, slightly different R/G/B cover colors, plus one of the two (thus far) was known to have been picked up right at the start by a member of Dave Arneson's group)).

Thanks for that input, Frank. Might be "THAT again" to you, but I'm rummaging pretty blind to try to piece this together. Hopefully not taking too many wrong turns.

ExTSR wrote:The 3k price cited is wrong, but it'd be rough trying to dig out that record; it's in the old and nearly unrecoverable data from TSR's anemic computer system used at the GenCon auction circa 1987-92.

Some days pencil & paper is good ^^

ExTSR wrote:(otoh, I know where that data is still stored...) I stand firmly by my assessment that it was NOT EVER a 'production run', but merely a leftover. otoh, I've never seen another brownbox sans stick-ons, and that alone holds value.

Noted.

Heh. And I'm still of the opinion that the first "public release" was more likely Eastercon 1974, rather than 1973, per http://www.acaeum.com/DDIndexes/SetPages/Original.html
As usual, Gary's dated foreward is a mis-lead, if so - since almost every single OD&D book was released one or more months after the foreward was written (i.e. not a publication date); Blackmoor being December rather than September 1975, for example.
(That also harks back to the old "if early 1973, why the delay, and where are those large number of people who started with photocopied rules in 1973/early 74" line of debate? Alarums & Excursions was /very/ slow off the mark, if it was actually 1973/Jan 74...).
*
But, hey, I've not seen the date of that D&D review (was it in the Courier? *thinks*), so I'm willing to be proven wrong by hard evidence.

jm-02c/afaik, fwiw *g*

*

ExTSR wrote:Some talk about Domesday books... I think I have The Last Domesday on mimeograph masters, the one that was never distributed. Got it from Rob Kuntz back in the '80s. Maybe that also should be scanned and recorded for Posterity...

Would be very good if Rob (and anyone else required) who needed to give the thumbs-up for that might be willing to do so. Such early material is elusive.
Content?

ExTSR wrote:Y'know, some of this old junk in my archives doesn't hold any great sentimental value for me. Maybe I should sell some.

F

Did you not say something about a museum, some time back? :)

  

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Post Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2006 4:55 pm 
 

harami2000 wrote:Content?


Quite, thanks.

Oh, you wanna know what's IN that... dunno, it's down in my archives. Have to wait and see if I can even find it. :/

Did you not say something about a museum, some time back?


Sure, but I have a cashflow need: Gotta build or buy somplace to put my est. 7,000 boardgames and 5,000 other game items & mss. So I'm thinking of selling a couple of small large-ticket items to help fund it.

  

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Post Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2006 5:34 pm 
 

This discussion is upsetting me.  I used to be secure in the knowledge that somewhere a sealed vault of all vaults protected the great game storage bins.

   The idea that a missed rent check or a leaky roof could unleash the hounds of chaos gives me pause.  Yikes!

Mark   8O


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