L4 to be published by Dragonsfoot..
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Post Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 12:20 pm 
 

Sir Clarence wrote:Yes, nearly all those maps were done very early on, in 2005 IIRC.  I wasn't even very proficient with the program at that time and, to be honest, if it wouldn't have delayed the whole publishing process even more and wouldn't be that much work, I would have redrawn all of them because - even for colored CC2 maps - they're truly looking out of date today.

The ones for L5 (which will probably be published later this year, although I'm very careful with these kind of prognoses after the L4 experience) are looking much better, at least IMHO.  But sadly, they will still be colored and not looking oldschool at all.  


That's what I thought, and it explains quite a bit, thanks.

Mike B.


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Post Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 1:55 pm 
 

mbassoc2003 wrote:This fanzine free fan fiction crap is just that. GB, LL and DF should hang their heads in shame.
C'mon now, be fair.  The module was worth the price.  Sounds like they got tired of working on it and decided to put something out the door.

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Post Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 2:19 pm 
 

deimos3428 wrote:C'mon now, be fair.  The module was worth the price.  Sounds like they got tired of working on it and decided to put something out the door.

The original notes whould have been far more useful and valuable to the community, and I'd be willing to bet they didn't contain the amount of typos and errors that the final fluff did. At the price, DF could have given us a far more usable and valuable work three years earlier. That arguement doesn't really stand up.


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Post Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 4:01 pm 
 

mbassoc2003 wrote:The original notes whould have been far more useful and valuable to the community, and I'd be willing to bet they didn't contain the amount of typos and errors that the final fluff did. At the price, DF could have given us a far more usable and valuable work three years earlier. That arguement doesn't really stand up.

So you're saying you'd rather have nothing, than something that doesn't measure up?

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Post Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 4:28 pm 
 

deimos3428 wrote:C'mon now, be fair.  The module was worth the price.  Sounds like they got tired of working on it and decided to put something out the door.


Post Edited as some of it was mean spirited

Based on the hype here and elsewhere that I had read and the LONG anticipated release of what was supposed to be something wonderful...

I really do not know if it was worth the price. My vote would be not worth the price...


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Last edited by Gnat the Beggar on Tue Jan 26, 2010 9:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
  

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Post Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 4:48 pm 
 

deimos3428 wrote:So you're saying you'd rather have nothing, than something that doesn't measure up?

No. I'm saying I'd rather the original design notes were presented in their original condition rather that what was eventially regurgetated out of the DF machine. DF have either destroyed something or what was there in the first place was already horrific. At least if the original NS were presented we'd know whether or not Len really wanted it that bad. I suspect not. I'd suggest DF are responsible.


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Post Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 6:14 pm 
 

mbassoc2003 wrote:No. I'm saying I'd rather the original design notes were presented in their original condition rather that what was eventially regurgetated out of the DF machine. DF have either destroyed something or what was there in the first place was already horrific. At least if the original NS were presented we'd know whether or not Len really wanted it that bad. I suspect not. I'd suggest DF are responsible.

Everything I've seen suggests that Lenard was the author of the manuscript ... meaning not just the notes, but also the fleshed out body.

The use of first person, future tense, and the interjections of lightheartedness ("...better take up fly-fishing") are consistent throughout everything I've seen.


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Post Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 9:12 pm 
 

Gnat the Beggar wrote:I wasted a lot of time downloading it, wasted some paper and ink printing some of the pages, and wasted more time (a lot more time) reading it.


mbassoc2003 wrote:DF have either destroyed something or what was there in the first place was already horrific.

You people embarrass me.  Grow up.

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Post Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 9:56 pm 
 

mbassoc2003 wrote:The original notes whould have been far more useful and valuable to the community, and I'd be willing to bet they didn't contain the amount of typos and errors that the final fluff did. At the price, DF could have given us a far more usable and valuable work three years earlier. That arguement doesn't really stand up.


Frickin' A. Like you're some sort of paragon of correct English usage. Your posts (see above) contain more spelling errors than the average homework my 1st grader turns in.

This is a free product. I'm sure Mr. Lakofka has some sort of life after TSR. He probably put as much time into this as he was willing to take out of that life. I personally have no use for it, but the outrage I'm seeing from a couple of people here is ridiculous.


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Post Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 10:29 pm 
 

I think some of you are being ridiculous, to say the least.

With that said, DF is calling on folks to offer their services, for free none-the-less:

http://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewt ... 45&start=0

So feel free to offer your time and make things better for the next release, so it's not substandard.  

Based on the some of these angry posts, I'll expect to see several offers to help, right?


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Post Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 10:37 pm 
 

As I said before . . . if anyone has questions or concerns, then PM Gnarley.

I agree with Mike; I suspect that posting at DF will end badly, especially since Len has an L4 thread.

[Edit: Removed.]

[Edit II:  Removed.]

[Edit III: removed Edits I and II that warned of Fid's offensive avatar.]


Last edited by JohnGaunt on Tue Jan 26, 2010 11:45 pm, edited 3 times in total.
  

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Post Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 9:39 am 
 

MetamorphosisSigma - As with most people I type on the fly. I am sure, has I been publishing a document (as I do every day) I would have taken a few moments to spell check and correct errors.

Badmike - I have always offered to work for free. Both cartography and proofreading. I don't think they are serious about it, or care that much. They run ads like that every so often.

As I see it, they only need ONE person to proofread something and ONE person to correct setout. Inconsistencies and ambiguities should have been picked up by the playtesting. Then the additional or clarified text added, and finally someone should have gone through every page looking for spelling mistakes and poor grammer. And even poor grammer is tolerable if the words are complete and correct.


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Post Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 6:08 pm 
 

mbassoc2003 wrote:MetamorphosisSigma - As with most people I type on the fly. I am sure, has I been publishing a document (as I do every day) I would have taken a few moments to spell check and correct errors.

Badmike - I have always offered to work for free. Both cartography and proofreading. I don't think they are serious about it, or care that much. They run ads like that every so often.

As I see it, they only need ONE person to proofread something and ONE person to correct setout. Inconsistencies and ambiguities should have been picked up by the playtesting. Then the additional or clarified text added, and finally someone should have gone through every page looking for spelling mistakes and poor grammer. And even poor grammer is tolerable if the words are complete and correct.


Ian, you still haven't posted in thread I posted offering your services.  How come?  

You keep saying that you offered previously, however I've yet to see any evidence of it.  

I mean make your point right now and offer up your help in public and when they rebuff you publicly like you are so insistent on them doing, then you'll have all the high ground to bitch about it that you want.  

Until you do though, it's all just looking like a really bad cop-out.


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Post Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 6:18 pm 
 

JohnGaunt wrote:As I said before . . . if anyone has questions or concerns, then PM Gnarley.

I agree with Mike; I suspect that posting at DF will end badly, especially since Len has an L4 thread.


Well, it really depends on how you go about it.  I mean, if you're going to completely condemn the project as garbage not even worth your time, as well as insult the author and all of those who worked on it, calling them dumb and wondering out loud if English is even their first language, then yes, you're most likely to get a really negative response(much the same reaction that happens around here and quite rightfully so).

OTOH, if you're more diplomatic about it and write something along the lines of(and please anyone can feel free to simply cut and paste this on the forum as their offer to help, you have my 100% blessing),

"GB, I really appreciate all the hard you guys did putting this long project together, however upon reviewing it, I believe that there were some editing/proofreading errors in it that may have been overlooked in the process.  I would love to be able to work on potentially removing some of these errors that I believe were overlooked and I will happily work at no charge as yourself and others have done through this long process, on the simple contingency that if I do do it, that you will give it a fair look as a viable corrected version for download once it's completed by me.  Let me know what you think"


I suspect that you will encounter much less resistance to it.   But hey that's me.


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Post Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 9:55 pm 
 

bclarkie wrote:I think some of you are being ridiculous, to say the least.

With that said, DF is calling on folks to offer their services, for free none-the-less:

http://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewt ... 45&start=0

So feel free to offer your time and make things better for the next release, so it's not substandard.  

Based on the some of these angry posts, I'll expect to see several offers to help, right?


Brian,
I hope you are not suggesting that people can't be critical because they did not volunteer to help with that project.
Because I volunteered and never got a response. And I do help edit Footprints (at least the last two issues and I am sure the next when it is ready). Now I am sure nobody knows that I do that over at DF because I am basically a nobody over there and they treat us nobodies like lepers for the most part.
My overall disappointment is not that the editing sucks and the layout is horrible and the story is at best choppy and at worst unworkable, but that this module has a lineage. The module is freaking L4 - a direct descendant of L1. It is as close to a real TSR module from the original source that we are ever likely to see. And this is the result?
How often is that kind of opportunity going to come along? Not very freaking often...
I don't have a problem with people being pissed, disappointed, thrilled or over-joyed. I am in none of those groups because I went straight from disappointed to completely uninterested.


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Post Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 10:17 pm 
 

I just thought I would pop in here and see if I can clear up some of the misunderstandings about L4.  Some of you may know me from DF, some of you may not.

Basically, I take a lot of responsibility for what L4 is and what it is not, so please direct your criticisms to me and not Gnarley Bones or Solomoriah.  I was basically the project coordinator (for lack of a better term) at the beginning of L4 (contacting Len, developing a rapport and dragging him away from competitive bridge) and the very loooong middle (as Len likes to say), but not at the end (real life has a way of interfering).  GB and Solo stepped in after we had many misadventures with volunteer proofers/editors during the looong middle and got this into "print".

By the time they took over, it had swollen to the size that you see and I had made the decision to go with the full color CC2 maps that Len favored.

If I had to do it over again, I would have imposed a 16 page or 32 page limit and forced Len to follow DF's editorial policy in favor of old school maps.  However, if I had done so, I know that Len would have resisted and this content would have never seen the light of day.

Some folks (especially those in the collector community) have said, simply why not just release (or auction) Len's original notes?  The problem is there are none.  He lost the drafts of L4 through L10 when he moved from Chicago to California.

Others have suggested, why not sell it through one of the old school renaissance publishers and utilize a paid, professional production team?  Three issues here: (1) when we began this, there were no OSR publishers, (2) this a Greyhawk module.  It is not set in an unnamed archipelago off the southeast coast of a large continent.  Are any of the OSR publishers selling Greyhawk modules? and (3) Len insisted from the beginning that this be "free".

As for volunteers being turned down, you're right - I turned lots of people (including some of my friends) away.  I had so many volunteers, I didn't have time to address them all personally and I apologize for this.  You would be amazed how many folks come out of the woodwork for the opportunity to meet Len and get their names in the credits.  As for the proofers during the looong middle, we set the criteria that they had to have professional experience or have been involved in other DF publications.  You have no idea how much fun it is to have such a "qualified" proofer spend nine months on a manuscript and then return it with just one comment - a misplaced comma on page 54!

Will some of your comments be addressed in L5 and L6.  Maybe, but the manuscript and maps for L5 are already done.  At the end of the day, most of us tried our best and I will always be in Gnarley's debt for stepping in at the end to make the best of my bad decisions.


Last edited by Fid on Tue Jan 26, 2010 10:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
  

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Post Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 10:22 pm 
 

bbarsh wrote:Brian,
I hope you are not suggesting that people can't be critical because they did not volunteer to help with that project.


Being critical about it is one thing.  Being a complete ass about it and insulting and ridiculing anyone that had anything to do with it is quite another.  Post after post of nothing but disparaging remarks about it makes no sense....especially here where it does little good.  If someone wants to complain, wouldnt it make more sense to do it at Dragonsfoot, where it originated?  At least that way all of the people that spent their free time working on it can truly get a feeling of just how much of a waste it was to do so (according to some people anyway).

Besides its free.  And like anything else offered up for nothing you either take it or leave it.  If you dont like it you keep it to yourself.  At least that is what I was taught growing up.


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Post Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 10:26 pm 
 

Edit:  Pie is good.  Cake is better.


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Last edited by Kingofpain89 on Wed Jan 27, 2010 8:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
  
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