L4 to be published by Dragonsfoot..
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Post Posted: Sun Jan 24, 2010 10:34 pm 
 

JohnGaunt wrote:While this Acaeum thead is good for Acaeum members to sort out the problems with L4, Dragonsfoot is really the place to post or PM criticisms and suggestions.

For example, I can post "Can a revised and corrected version be released soon?  Such a version should be easy to produce now that the rough draft has been savaged" all day long at the Acaeum, but that has no real effect on Dragonsfoot.

Politely PMing GnarleyBones and others might be effective in getting some response to the concerns listed in this thread.


JG what's the point. You'll be eaten alive by the "It was free, why are you complaining?" or "If you could do better, then why didn't you volunteer?" crowd if you post any harsh criticism.  If you PM I am going to bet you'll be politely ignored at best.  As a matter of fact I believe GB already posted that if you find editing mistakes, to keep it to yourself because he wasn't interested (having already spent a LOT of time as it was).

I am going to go out on a limb and say it will end ugly if you post too many criticisms or suggestions at DF....just a prediction. Most of the guys who worked on L4 over there are Mods...

Maybe someone with a lot of time on their hands could put it together in a usable form, ala that dude that "re-edited" The Phantom Menace to take out Jar Jar Binks and make it a leaner, darker film?

Mike B.

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Yes, by all means, please list your errata after it's posted; I can perfectly understand how the speedy production prevented the editors from making all the necessary changes.  :evil:

We're not making any changes; all editing should have been completed long ago.

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Post Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 4:32 am 
 

There's no way GnarleyBones or anyone has read through those offerings. The spelling and grammer are downright embarrassing. I can't believe GB is that illiterate. More like he just didn't give a F. And some of us did offer to proofread and draw maps. Maybe grade school level education should have been set as the minimum level for people working on the project, rather than the maximum.


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Post Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 6:54 am 
 

Being the one who made the maps, all I can say is that Len was adamant in his wish that they should be drawn with CC2 and also look this way.

Some of you might know that I much more prefer the old blue&white map style myself, and usually draw these for other DF modules as well as for Black Blade Publishing for example.  I tried to persuade Len to use maps like these, but he denied, and since he was the boss, things went on as he wanted them.  I wish it would have been different, but it shouldn't be so.  Still, it was great fun working together with Len on this.  :)

  

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Post Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 10:07 am 
 

Sir Clarence wrote:Being the one who made the maps, all I can say is that Len was adamant in his wish that they should be drawn with CC2 and also look this way.

Some of you might know that I much more prefer the old blue&white map style myself, and usually draw these for other DF modules as well as for Black Blade Publishing for example.  I tried to persuade Len to use maps like these, but he denied, and since he was the boss, things went on as he wanted them.  I wish it would have been different, but it shouldn't be so.  Still, it was great fun working together with Len on this.  :)


Thanks for giving us the insight there, SC. Ugh, can't believe Len preferred these!  Well that explains that. I think the blue/white maps would have added immensely to the "look" of the product. Were these done early in the process (i.e. a few years ago?). I would have thought more publications the last few years using the blue/white scheme might have persuaded Len otherwise.

I wouldn't put the onus of the bad editing on any one person.  After so many delays, I'm sure a mind set arose to just GET IT OUT.  And it is very hard to wrangle a project like this if you are the 2nd/5th/10th guy to come along after it's been kicked around for awhile. But yeh I was pretty shocked at the final result, especially since GB's own releases with DF are quite professional.

On a 3rd read through it strikes me how difficult the entire thing is to even make sense of....not a good thing. I don't even think you can "play" this module.....it's more like a sourcebook of locations than anything else.  

I still think someone with time on their hands could re-write this and turn out a pretty decent product.  

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Post Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 10:12 am 
 

Just out of interest, would that be possible as it was produced for free onto the DF site?

I might have a dabble on this, even if to do some simple editing.  :)


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Post Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 10:27 am 
 

Is it just me or is really very little buzz about this release. Over at DF there is surprisingly very little comment other than a few congrats to LL who added a Q/A thread.
How long have people been waiting for this thing. I know it took more than 4 years, but the rumors of additional L series mods have been around much longer than that. And when you consider this is about as close to a TSR release as you will ever see again, I am astounded by the lackluster reception. Crap, there is moe posted here about it than over at DF. I only drop in from time to time over there and pretty much stay in the classic D&D thread.


And I could've bought these damn modules off the 1$ rack!!!

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Post Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 11:25 am 
 

I think maybe if you wait 4 years and then this turns up, there isn't gonna be much hoo-ha. It is shite for some 4 years of work and editing. And if it's a true representation of LL's creation and campaign, presented the way he wanted it to be, then the guy has destroyed any reputation he ever had.


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Post Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 11:35 am 
 

bbarsh wrote:Is it just me or is really very little buzz about this release. Over at DF there is surprisingly very little comment other than a few congrats to LL who added a Q/A thread.
How long have people been waiting for this thing. I know it took more than 4 years, but the rumors of additional L series mods have been around much longer than that. And when you consider this is about as close to a TSR release as you will ever see again, I am astounded by the lackluster reception. Crap, there is moe posted here about it than over at DF. I only drop in from time to time over there and pretty much stay in the classic D&D thread.


#1 This thing has been in the can far too long.  You know as someone who releases product on a regular basis that a long delay will kill the momentum of a project. Four years ago before Swords & Wizardry, OSRIC, Black Blade Publishing, Pacesetter, etc, the masses were starved for old school goodies. Now, in 2010, it's just another in a long line of recent old school releases...and on the level of fan-fic rather than the semi-professional stuff we've seen.

#2 People who are downloading and reading this are probably choosing the route of "Better to say nothing at all than to complain", and I can't blame them.  I'm not posting stuff over there about L4 because it wouldn't serve any purpose but to create a flame war.  People who feel like they have so support both Len and those who worked on this would feel obligated to defend them no matter their personal feelings.  Since over here we are more "neutral" on this issue and have no ties to the product, we can speak our minds.

I don't think people on DF want to talk about a project they think fell short after so much time in the works. Bill I love ya man, but if you release a POS I'll let you know.  I just don't think the same dynamic applies there about this release.

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Post Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 11:43 am 
 

Badmike wrote:Were these done early in the process (i.e. a few years ago?). I would have thought more publications the last few years using the blue/white scheme might have persuaded Len otherwise.


Yes, nearly all those maps were done very early on, in 2005 IIRC.  I wasn't even very proficient with the program at that time and, to be honest, if it wouldn't have delayed the whole publishing process even more and wouldn't be that much work, I would have redrawn all of them because - even for colored CC2 maps - they're truly looking out of date today.

The ones for L5 (which will probably be published later this year, although I'm very careful with these kind of prognoses after the L4 experience) are looking much better, at least IMHO.  But sadly, they will still be colored and not looking oldschool at all. :(


Badmike wrote:On a 3rd read through it strikes me how difficult the entire thing is to even make sense of....not a good thing. I don't even think you can "play" this module.....it's more like a sourcebook of locations than anything else.

It is indeed far more a sourcebook than anything else, carrying the basic idea of L1 to the extreme, in that it provides a series of different locations that DMs can use to adventure therein.  After all this correspondence with Len, I got the impression that his dream is to one day have the whole of Lendore Isle published that way.

  

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Post Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 11:58 am 
 

Sir Clarence wrote:After all this correspondence with Len, I got the impression that his dream is to one day have the whole of Lendore Isle published that way.

This is something many people would welcome and in all likelihood pay good money for. But he should go to professional publishers who speek English and get a good cover price set for the project. This would bring many benefits:

1. It would be far more likly to get published to program.
2. It would be typeset by professionals who knew how to operate computers.
3. It would be illustrated and mapped by professionals with an artistic eye an appreciation of aesthetic.
4. It would be written in English and proofread by people who had been educated after highschool.
5. He would make money for his campaign world.
6. He may manage to recover some of his shattered reputation (for which I'm sure he still blames TSR/WoTC, but it seems from this debacle lies squarely on his own shoulders).

I for one would welcome a professional product from LL, but I'd only pay for stock if it came from a reputable publisher and have reputable co-authors, editors and illustrators.

This fanzine free fan fiction crap is just that. GB, LL and DF should hang their heads in shame.


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Post Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 12:20 pm 
 

Sir Clarence wrote:Yes, nearly all those maps were done very early on, in 2005 IIRC.  I wasn't even very proficient with the program at that time and, to be honest, if it wouldn't have delayed the whole publishing process even more and wouldn't be that much work, I would have redrawn all of them because - even for colored CC2 maps - they're truly looking out of date today.

The ones for L5 (which will probably be published later this year, although I'm very careful with these kind of prognoses after the L4 experience) are looking much better, at least IMHO.  But sadly, they will still be colored and not looking oldschool at all.  


That's what I thought, and it explains quite a bit, thanks.

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Post Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 1:55 pm 
 

mbassoc2003 wrote:This fanzine free fan fiction crap is just that. GB, LL and DF should hang their heads in shame.
C'mon now, be fair.  The module was worth the price.  Sounds like they got tired of working on it and decided to put something out the door.

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Post Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 2:19 pm 
 

deimos3428 wrote:C'mon now, be fair.  The module was worth the price.  Sounds like they got tired of working on it and decided to put something out the door.

The original notes whould have been far more useful and valuable to the community, and I'd be willing to bet they didn't contain the amount of typos and errors that the final fluff did. At the price, DF could have given us a far more usable and valuable work three years earlier. That arguement doesn't really stand up.


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Post Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 4:01 pm 
 

mbassoc2003 wrote:The original notes whould have been far more useful and valuable to the community, and I'd be willing to bet they didn't contain the amount of typos and errors that the final fluff did. At the price, DF could have given us a far more usable and valuable work three years earlier. That arguement doesn't really stand up.

So you're saying you'd rather have nothing, than something that doesn't measure up?

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Post Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 4:28 pm 
 

deimos3428 wrote:C'mon now, be fair.  The module was worth the price.  Sounds like they got tired of working on it and decided to put something out the door.


Post Edited as some of it was mean spirited

Based on the hype here and elsewhere that I had read and the LONG anticipated release of what was supposed to be something wonderful...

I really do not know if it was worth the price. My vote would be not worth the price...


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Post Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 4:48 pm 
 

deimos3428 wrote:So you're saying you'd rather have nothing, than something that doesn't measure up?

No. I'm saying I'd rather the original design notes were presented in their original condition rather that what was eventially regurgetated out of the DF machine. DF have either destroyed something or what was there in the first place was already horrific. At least if the original NS were presented we'd know whether or not Len really wanted it that bad. I suspect not. I'd suggest DF are responsible.


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Post Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 6:14 pm 
 

mbassoc2003 wrote:No. I'm saying I'd rather the original design notes were presented in their original condition rather that what was eventially regurgetated out of the DF machine. DF have either destroyed something or what was there in the first place was already horrific. At least if the original NS were presented we'd know whether or not Len really wanted it that bad. I suspect not. I'd suggest DF are responsible.

Everything I've seen suggests that Lenard was the author of the manuscript ... meaning not just the notes, but also the fleshed out body.

The use of first person, future tense, and the interjections of lightheartedness ("...better take up fly-fishing") are consistent throughout everything I've seen.


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Post Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 9:12 pm 
 

Gnat the Beggar wrote:I wasted a lot of time downloading it, wasted some paper and ink printing some of the pages, and wasted more time (a lot more time) reading it.


mbassoc2003 wrote:DF have either destroyed something or what was there in the first place was already horrific.

You people embarrass me.  Grow up.

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Post Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 9:56 pm 
 

mbassoc2003 wrote:The original notes whould have been far more useful and valuable to the community, and I'd be willing to bet they didn't contain the amount of typos and errors that the final fluff did. At the price, DF could have given us a far more usable and valuable work three years earlier. That arguement doesn't really stand up.


Frickin' A. Like you're some sort of paragon of correct English usage. Your posts (see above) contain more spelling errors than the average homework my 1st grader turns in.

This is a free product. I'm sure Mr. Lakofka has some sort of life after TSR. He probably put as much time into this as he was willing to take out of that life. I personally have no use for it, but the outrage I'm seeing from a couple of people here is ridiculous.


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Post Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 10:29 pm 
 

I think some of you are being ridiculous, to say the least.

With that said, DF is calling on folks to offer their services, for free none-the-less:

http://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewt ... 45&start=0

So feel free to offer your time and make things better for the next release, so it's not substandard.  

Based on the some of these angry posts, I'll expect to see several offers to help, right?


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